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Dean smoking the competition

Election 2004 Howard Dean 2003

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 01:38 PM

http://americanresea...com/nhpoll/dem/

Quote

Receiving a boost from registered Democrats, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean has increased his lead in ballot preference among likely Democratic primary voters in the New Hampshire Democratic Presidential Preference Primary according to the latest New Hampshire Poll. In ballot preference, Dean now leads with 45%. Senator John Kerry is at 13% and Wesley Clark is at 11%. Ballot preferences for the six other major candidates remain in single digits.

http://www.zogby.com/news/Nh6.htm

Quote

Former Vermont Governor Dr. Howard Dean, who enjoyed a 40% - 17% lead in October polling of New Hampshire Democratic primary likely voters over Massachusetts Senator John Kerry, has stretched that lead in December polling to 42% - 12%.  Retired general Wesley Clark is third at 9%, followed by Connecticut Senator Joseph Lieberman with 7%.

Yowch. Those are amazing numbers.

EDIT: Dean is also slightly ahead in Iowa:

http://www.zogby.com...News.dbm?ID=762

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 04 December 2003 - 01:48 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#2 G1223

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 03:39 PM

I still think that hilary is going to make the announcement here and soon. She has been shaking hands in Iowa and in Hollywood. She is going to go for it soon or at the convention.  She cannot wait till 08.She might loes the NY senate seat in 06
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#3 Drew

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 04:36 PM

I've decided that Howard Dean is simply Bill Clinton in disguise. Have we ever seen them in the same room together? Hmmm?
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#4 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 04:38 PM

^  Has anyone ever seen him and Hilary in the same room?

:ninja:
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#5 DWF

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 06:11 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Dec 4 2003, 04:38 PM, said:

^  Has anyone ever seen him and Hilary in the same room?

:ninja:
Clinton or Dean? :lol:  :lol:

Edited by DWF, 04 December 2003 - 06:12 PM.

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#6 Rhea

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 06:36 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Dec 4 2003, 02:38 PM, said:

^  Has anyone ever seen him and Hilary in the same room?

:ninja:
As smart as I think she is, anybody that would stay married to Bill Clinton after being publicly humiliated and lied to by her husband would not have my vote for anything, except possibly street sweeper.  :wacko:
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#7 HubcapDave

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 07:01 PM

Regarding the title:

I knew he must have been smoking something!

#8 Smitty

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 11:14 PM

I saw smoking I thought it was referring to the Dean supporters.

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#9 Norville

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 02:16 PM

Agreed with Rhea about HC -- I suppose she stays married to the git because she thinks it will get her somewhere politically, but it's certainly made me lose any respect for her. (Okay, I should respect what looks like loyalty to a marriage, I suppose... but it just feels so wrong in their case that I *don't* have respect for it.)
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#10 Yama

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 03:09 PM

G1223, on Dec 4 2003, 08:39 PM, said:

I still think that hilary is going to make the announcement here and soon. She has been shaking hands in Iowa and in Hollywood. She is going to go for it soon or at the convention.  She cannot wait till 08.She might loes the NY senate seat in 06
G1223, you must be a conservative Republican.

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#11 Rov Judicata

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 05:02 PM

Rhea, on Dec 4 2003, 04:36 PM, said:

As smart as I think she is, anybody that would stay married to Bill Clinton after being publicly humiliated and lied to by her husband would not have my vote for anything, except possibly street sweeper.  :wacko:
I would think "dry cleaner" would be the more logical choice.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#12 Drew

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 05:11 PM

I still wanna know what's in Howard Dean's Secret Files that he's keeping them under lock and key for the next ten years.  :suspect:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#13 Godeskian

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 06:46 PM

Rhea, on Dec 5 2003, 12:36 AM, said:

As smart as I think she is, anybody that would stay married to Bill Clinton after being publicly humiliated and lied to by her husband would not have my vote for anything, except possibly street sweeper.  :wacko:
who knows

maybe she actually loves him

it does tend to make one do the wacky

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#14 StarDust

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 06:50 PM

As far as Hillary and Bill Clinton goes, a marriage is private.

Everyone has their own values.  There are a lot of marriages where one or both have cheated and they stay together for all kinds of reasons. It's really not up to anyone else to judge. I have my values and priorities, others have theirs. It doesn't hurt anyone else and it's no one business. Maybe their relationship is good enough that it makes up for the mistakes. Maybe she's got her own skeletons that balance things out, we just don't know and we really shouldn't judge based on that.


As far a Dean goes, I'm not surprised. He's new to a lot of people, so they aren't Jaded yet.  And Kerry changes his skin as often as he changes his clothes. Kerry isn't going to have many fans around here, even if he's a New Englander.  My opinion of him has nose-dived this last year.

#15 Banapis

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 11:05 PM

Drew, on Dec 5 2003, 10:11 PM, said:

I still wanna know what's in Howard Dean's Secret Files that he's keeping them under lock and key for the next ten years.  :suspect:
And I want to know what's in all the sealed records of all the other governors throughout the country! :D

But what makes this story so amazing is not just the nationwide negative press of Dean’s sealing of some records that is so commonplace and normal among governors, it’s that the stunning lengths Bush has gone to conceal his own records – with nearly zero coverage from the national media – have long since gone far beyond the bounds of normal gubernatorial record sealing like that engaged in by Dean.

As an article last month in the Austin Chronicle put it:

Quote

One of the many issues on which President George W. Bush and Gov. Rick Perry see eye to eye is open records. Both men seem to have a gut instinct against public disclosure of the operations of government. And if they succeed in their ongoing attempts to restrict access to public records in Texas, they will have undermined a law that, 30 years after its enactment, advocates often describe as one of the best open records laws in the U.S.

http://www.austinchr...ls_feature.html

NOTE: the picture of Bush’s records – still shrinkwrapped on pallets at the Texas State Library.  What’s going on here, you ask?  Read on, for we have quite a story to tell. ;)

When W left office, he shipped *all* his records (in contrast to Dean’s limited %) to H.W.’s presidential library on the Texas A&M campus in College Station – which had the result of making them totally inaccessible to the public.  No staff was provided to catalogue the records and, since they were physically located in a President Library -- a federal facility -- they were subject to federal, rather than Texas, public record access law.  Sneaky sneaky.

What advantage was there from these federal laws?  As Howard Dean himself pointed out on Good Morning America:

Quote

President Bush sort of takes the cake for his sealing. He actually had his sent, as I understand it, to his father's presidential library, where there's a 50-year seal.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ez.gop.dean.ap/

As you might imagine, this sealing of all records made people unhappy:

:angry: <-- Texans

So the good and decent people of TX had to resort to filing legal complaints help to gain access to W’s secret files.  Finally, the TX attorney general ruled that the TX gubernatorial records must be shipped to the state archive for cataloguing.

:D <-- And there was much rejoicing in TX!

So after the years had passed, and legal authorities intervened,  W’s “secret files” finally moseyed their way to Austin in August 2002.  Cataloguing will apparently take 3 years – amazing coincidence how that timeframe takes us beyond the 2004 election, eh?  Then the records will be shipped back to H.W.’s presidential library.  But the media keeps telling us that that Bush’s records are accessible under TX’s FIA right?

Quote

Bush's gubernatorial records can be [now] reviewed by filing a request under the state's Freedom of Information Act, LaPlante says. But some documents or parts of documents are protected from disclosure under claims of executive privilege or because of other factors. In disputed cases, the Texas attorney general rules on whether records can be released.

http://www.usatoday....nder-fire_x.htm

So there are still “secret files” that won’t be disclosed.  “Executive Privilege” and all… And requests for access to the rest are subject to “review.” And even if the request is granted, Bush can still dispute their release.  Hmm… but didn’t the New York Times and the rest of the national media insist they were available for viewing?

Quote

The New York Times’ Jodi Wilgoren reported that “Mr. Bush’s Texas records were moved back to state custody after a ruling from the attorney general, and an archivist for the state said the Bush records were available for viewing.”

Archivist LaPlante called the above statement in the Times story “deceiving.” While the Bush records are officially “viewable,” said LaPlante, actually viewing them is another matter.

“They’re technically accessible,” said LaPlante, “but you might not get everything you ask for, even if we can find it.”

http://www.sevendays.../col/track.html

Oh.

:( <-- Texans and Americans dejected.

Yes, I suppose that whole not-having-been-catalogued-yet and still sealed in shrinkwrap business tends to get in the way of people finding things.  If only Dean were the son of a President too, he could have taken the same route. Of course, that assumes he’d be willing to do so – which is a matter for conjecture. One thing is for certain though, it’s a strategy that apparently gets you a guaranteed free pass from the “liberal” media.

Banapis

P.S. Additional Source: W.'s Paper Chase
(Austin Chronicle story from 2001, includes funny cartoon of Bush scooping up papers and running. :hehe: )

#16 Delvo

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:03 AM

Banapis, on Dec 5 2003, 10:05 PM, said:

And I want to know what's in all the sealed records of all the other governors throughout the country! :D

But what makes this story so amazing is not just the nationwide negative press of Dean’s sealing of some records that is so commonplace and normal among governors, it’s that the stunning lengths Bush has gone to conceal his own records – with nearly zero coverage from the national media – have long since gone far beyond the bounds of normal gubernatorial record sealing like that engaged in by Dean.
As certain as I am that this Bush story is wildly exaggerated (perhaps beyond recognition) and stuffed with auxilliary lies, even if the core story itself isn't false, I do want to see some more reporting on it. Given how eager most of the press is to "get" Bush in any imaginable way, the only reason I can see why they would mostly not be reporting it is if they already know it's really nothing. If they actually had something, obviously they'd use it on him. But still, maybe they mostly just don't know yet. And if it's for real, I certainly wouldn't approve.

But let's not let the fact that Bush might have done something like that mislead us into pretending that the press is hounding Dean, either. I follow the news too, so you're not going to fool me into thinking the Dean files thing is getting heavy coverage; it's getting practically none. Nor should Bush's apparently having a similar issue lead one to pretend that what Dean did is normal... or that if it were normal that would make it alright.

#17 Banapis

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 03:13 AM

Delvo, on Dec 6 2003, 07:03 AM, said:

Nor should Bush's apparently having a similar issue lead one to pretend that what Dean did is normal... or that if it were normal that would make it alright.
Oh, absolutely.  I’m with you 100% Delvo.

I’m no fan of the ability to seal off so many records. At the Federal level, I can understand the necessity to seal off some records for “national security” reasons – though I have no doubt that this ability is being abused to no end.   But when we’re talking the State level, the need to seal off records becomes far less apparent. Certainly, Governor Dean is correct in asserting that things like correspondence that would reveal information like a constituent’s affliction with AIDS, their sexual preference, and other personal details should not be publicly available.  Nevertheless, there is again little doubt that things are going to be swept into the “sealed files” simply for political reasons – which undermines our ability to hold elected officials accountable.

Finding a way to balance the various interests and prevent the process from being abused is definitely an important issue that needs to be re-evaluated.  Until then, we’ll have to continue to assess politicians from readily observable acts such as the legislation and policies they've supported, their ability to handle crises, and their aptitude for formulating solutions that work. Which is an approach, I suppose, that is not entirely without merit.

Banapis

#18 Delvo

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 03:44 AM

Banapis, on Dec 6 2003, 02:13 AM, said:

things like correspondence that would reveal information like a constituent’s affliction with AIDS, their sexual preference, and other personal details should not be publicly available.
If the idea is to protect the privacy of people other than the politician in question, then keeping the files secret (or chosing not to) should be under the control of that person being protected in each case, not something the politician does. Then there'd be no need for the politician to have ANY power to lock files up, and thus no politician-locked files for anyone to guess the significance of.

Edited by Delvo, 06 December 2003 - 03:46 AM.


#19 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 09:35 AM

The way Banapis has portrayed the Bush story is essentially true.

However, the idea that Bush got a free pass is simply false. It did get overlooked by television media, but the newspapers were all over it. As for the NY Times article, I'd really need the rest of it to be sure. After all, the next line could have been describing the difficulties.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#20 DWF

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 10:05 AM

HubcapDave, on Dec 4 2003, 07:01 PM, said:

Regarding the title:

I knew he must have been smoking something!
Yeah he was smoling something, but he didn't inhale. :lol:
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido



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