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Confirmed: Saddam captured

Iraq Saddam Hussein Captured

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#161 the 'Hawk

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 06:27 PM

^ I hate to say it, but unless something's changed since last I checked, Annan does have a dog in this fight (see also: the Baghdad UN headquarters), and I think his "sticking by his principles" should be given some consideration by the Governing Council.

That said, however, maybe Annan's position on the matter merits its own thread, Rov? Just a thought.

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#162 Kosh

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 09:51 PM

Quote

It should be a jury of his peers, or the closest thing to it.

Where in the world are you going to find 12 deposed despots?

Now you could us reigning despots, bring in Momar and that fellow over in Korea, Chinas government, yeah, that might work.
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#163 Kosh

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 09:53 PM

Quote

It should be a jury of his peers, or the closest thing to it.

Where in the world are you going to find 12 deposed despots?

Now you could us reigning despots, bring in Momar and that fellow over in Korea, Chinas government, yeah, that might work.
Can't Touch This!!

#164 MuseZack

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 10:58 PM

Okay, how's this for irony?  The mission to capture Saddam was called Operation Red Dawn (like the cheesy but entertaining Milius movie about commies invading America), right?  Now check out who's celebrating Saddam's downfall:  http://story.news.ya...ezwv2x7p_photo3

And on the subject of that photo, how about the lady in the red blouse?  Gotta love the commies, who at least have the decency not to keep women covered up in the abaya! :wub:  :wub:
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#165 Smitty

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 12:17 AM

Remember that the communist party like many/all political parties in Iraq were horribly repressed.

They have cause to celebrate like everyone else.

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#166 Rov Judicata

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 01:06 PM

MuseZack, on Dec 15 2003, 08:58 PM, said:

Okay, how's this for irony?
It's terribly ironic.

I eagerly await OBL to be nabbed in the controversial operation "Gigli"...
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#167 MuseZack

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 01:11 PM

BTW, here's an excellent article that goes into further detail on Saddam's hideout and notes a few more historical ironies.  It also demonstrates that when he's not grinding a political axe, Robert Fisk is still the best straight-out reporter in the Middle East.

http://www.thestar.c...rticleId=309403

So what could we learn of Saddam yesterday in this, his very last private residence in Iraq.

Well, he had chosen a hide only 200m from a shrine marking his own famous retreat across the Tigris river in 1959, on the run as a wounded young guerrilla after trying to assassinate an earlier president of Iraq.

Here it was that he dug the bullet out of his body and on a low hill within eyesight of this palm-grove is the mosque that marks the spot where, in a coffee shop, Saddam vainly pleaded with his fellow Iraqi tribesmen to help him escape.

Saddam, in his last days as a free man, had retreated into his past, back to the days of glory that preceded his butcheries.

He had the use of a tiny generator which I found wired up to a miniature fridge. The fridge was in one half of the hut and contained water bottles and a bottle of medicine with a label marked "Dropil".

There was a tube of skin cream on the top, a tub of moisturising cream, a sewing kit in a cellophane bag and - how Saddam must have been plagued by mosquitoes unimpressed by Ba'ath party punishments - a can of "Pif-paf". There were two old beds and some filthy blankets.

In the little kitchen next door, there were sausages hanging to dry, bananas, oranges and - near a washing-up bowl - tins of Jordanian chicken and beef luncheon meat, heaps of "Happy Tuna".


"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#168 Kevin Street

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 02:35 PM

Thanks for the links, Rov and Zack. They add some very intresting dimensions to this story. :)

Quote

CJ:
Did I say an American and British tribunal? I said a tribunal drawn from the Coalition of the Willing that means Australia, Poland, Thailand, and many other nations would have equal representation with UK and US. I would also suggest picking a Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish jurists from Iraq along with a Kuwaiti and Iranian Jurist. That means a good portion of those that Saddam wronged would be present along with the Coalition.

It would still be an American run operation, which would give the impression (in a region like the Middle East where people are looking for excuses to hate Americans) that the conquering power is getting rid of its enemy, abeit with the help of subordinates.

But if the Americans eventually give up Saddam (after draining him of any useful information he might have) to an Iraqi court, that would go a long way to justifying this war as a real liberation of Iraq. Iraqis who object to a continuing American military presence in their country would be hard pressed to find reasons to justify their stance when the US helps them achieve justice in such a dramatic way.

It all comes down to a difference in perceptions. America dealing directly with Saddam looks like vengance (no matter who is used to stand in for the occupying power), but America giving Saddam back to Iraq to face a punishment imposed by his own people looks like a sincere attempt to help them solve their own problems.

Quote

Kosh:
Where in the world are you going to find 12 deposed despots?

Now you could us reigning despots, bring in Momar and that fellow over in Korea, Chinas government, yeah, that might work.

Somehow, I don't think they'd be too hard on Saddam. But "a jury of his peers" doesn't necessarily mean that only other criminals can judge him. We don't try bank robbers by filling the jury pool with criminals, after all. It just means that he'd be judged by people from his own country, who share a common cultural/social background with him.
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#169 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 12:18 AM

Quote

Kevin Street: It would still be an American run operation, which would give the impression (in a region like the Middle East where people are looking for excuses to hate Americans) that the conquering power is getting rid of its enemy, abeit with the help of subordinates.

I disagree with that statement Kevin.  The United States would have no more choice and influence on the matter of Saddam’s fate than any other country on the tribunal.  

Quote

Kevin Street: America dealing directly with Saddam looks like vengance (no matter who is used to stand in for the occupying power), but America giving Saddam back to Iraq to face a punishment imposed by his own people looks like a sincere attempt to help them solve their own problems.

I disagree.  I don’t think tossing Saddam to the dogs would be an example of justice.  It would be an example of allowing the mob to rip him apart and as justly deserved as that is it had no place in a Iraq ruled by laws.  The US needs to maintain oversight over the process in order to prevent such an occurrence.
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#170 Godeskian

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 01:08 AM

that shows that actually, you don't trust that the Iraqi's are capable of competent, legal rule on their own

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#171 Lord Ravensburg

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 02:26 AM

At this very moment, in the country's current state, they aren't.

#172 Uncle Sid

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 07:00 AM

By all means, Saddam should be tried by Iraqis or at least, they should get first crack at him.  Still, the fact is that Iraq doesn't even have a real government yet, it's still really under occupation.  Further, I'm very doubtful that Saddam's capture will even abate all of the threat of  the Baathists, let alone the outsiders who are involved in there right now.  

Let's be clear, Iraq has no tradition of democracy, certainly no tradition of fair trials and a lot of tradition of firing AK-47s in the air or at people for any reason whatsoever.  I don't think it would wrong to step back and be wary of what sort of trial that Saddam's going to get.  Not to say that it's impossible, of course, but Iraqis haven't all suddenly morphed into democrats (nor even Republicans ha ha) just because Saddam's gone.  

Personally, I opposed the death penalty and I oppose it in this case as well, although I recognize that it might be easier in the short term to deal with him in this way.  Personally, I think it would probably be worse to leave him jailed and let him think about how he screwed up until he dies.  At that point God can take over with the rest of the punishment.  Believe me, Saddam Hussein isn't getting off scot free for this no matter what punishment we select for him.
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#173 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 09:49 AM

Godeskian, on Dec 17 2003, 01:08 AM, said:

that shows that actually, you don't trust that the Iraqi's are capable of competent, legal rule on their own
I’m agreed with LR on this one.  Iraq has no tradition of democratic rule or even of fair trials.  That isn’t going to materialize from thin air without guidance and oversight from the Coalition.
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#174 Kevin Street

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 05:27 PM

I saw a very interesting analysis of this issue on "Nightline" last night, but unfortunately they don't seem to have any relevant links on their website.

In a rather fortunate coincidence, Iraq's Governing Council passed the War Crimes Tribunal Law and the Crimes Against Humanity Law just a few days before Saddam was captured, so they do have the legal infrastructure required for a fair trial. Practical experience may be lacking, though. But if Iraq's judiciary is ever going to earn a reputation for fairness and justice this case seems like a good one to start with. It looks like they will use the new laws to put him on trial, although the degree of US involvement is still being worked out. There will probably be quite a bit of American and international involvement on the practical end of things, since the Iraqis have never had to put on a trial as complicated as this before - there's all kinds of things they'll need help with, like DNA evidence from mass graves, advice on setting up witness protection programs, impartial experts who can testify to the accuracy of war crimes evidence, and so on. But it seems like things are moving forward in a positive direction.

Here's some links I found that talk about the issues involved:

Saddam's trial will be first test for new Iraq <--Registration required.

Quote

By MATTHEW GUTMAN

BAGHDAD ? Saddam Hussein's trial, which could be as little as six weeks away, represents the first test of the fledgling Iraqi democracy, an Iraqi National Congress spokesman said on Tuesday. It will either buttress it or send it tumbling toward disarray and internecine bloodshed.

"The trial is very important for the future for the Iraqi people and for the law in Iraq," Entifadh Qanbar told reporters. "The special tribunal will be ready in six weeks... after that we will be ready to try the war criminals."

After three months of wrangling and internal debate, the Iraqi Governing Council codified the War Crimes Tribunal Law and the Crimes Against Humanity Law last week, just days before Saddam's capture.

Under pressure from the US and other coalition members, it moved to abandon the death penalty in every other level of its fledgling judicial branch. But with the public clamoring for Saddam's death so loudly that the council could not ignore it, the body ultimately crafted its law in adherence to all the Geneva Convention codes ? except for the death penalty.

"Even I personally would like to see him convicted and put to death," said Qanbar, who was arrested and interrogated by Saddam's military intelligence in 1987.

Governing Council members remain mum over whether Saddam would be the first to face the new Iraqi tribunal ? and, quite possibly, the hangman shortly thereafter.

The one thing the council is not worried about is evidence. Saddam's regime videotaped and documented almost every incident of torture and murder ordered by its executive branch. The bulk of those files were salvaged from government buildings shortly after the war.

Besides being a "precedent for what could be a new Middle East," Qanbar said that Saddam's trial will also serve as a truth and reconciliation commission. It will expose many of the regime's crimes as a critical part of the presentation of evidence.

"All of this will come out," he said. "The genie has already left the bottle. The trial will uncover those dirty deals, the bribes of politicians, journalists, actors, those people who became agents for the Mukhabarat [intelligence service]."

Few will be spared, he added.
The mounds of Mukhabarat files rescued from looters at the organization's headquarters in early April show that ministers of Western nations were also on Saddam's payroll, Qanbar said. Their identities will be revealed soon, he said, offering no names.

Saddam's deployment of chemical weapons against the Kurds in northern Iraq and against Iran and his concealment of weapons of mass destruction are also likely to be critical to the presentation of evidence.

Yet there is concern, Qanbar said, that the US, France, and Russia may try to the limit the scope of the trial in order to cover their sales of critical components for weapons of mass destruction.

Foreign observers, including UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, voiced concern on Tuesday that Saddam, accused by the Governing Council of slaughtering almost a million people, would not receive a fair trial.

According to Iraq's War Crimes Tribunal Law, defendants will be accorded something akin to the US's Miranda rights, in which a defendant retains the right to remain silent.

Defendants will also retain the right to appoint any attorney they wish, Iraqi or foreign. However, the panel of five judges and the five prosecutors will all be Iraqi.

If convicted, a defendant would have the right to turn to a court of appeal with nine judges.
Foreign jurists will participate in trials only as observers.

Qandar and other Governing Council members, such as current President Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, have said that an Iraqi trial for Saddam would be "much quicker and more efficient" than one at the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague.

But the Western standards to which the Governing Council has promised to adhere grate against the desire of most Iraqis to see Saddam dangling from a noose.

In interviews with The Jerusalem Post over the past two weeks, the vast majority of Iraqis who called for Saddam's capture and trial would like to see him receive the death penalty.

At a rally in Baghdad on Tuesday, organized by the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), several hundred supporters called for blood, pumping pictures of a bearded Saddam with red letters scrawled across the top reading: "The devil is gone."
Some wished him a death sentence for each Iraqi he slaughtered.

Other anti-Saddam rallies sprung up across southern Iraq on Monday as a counterbalance to the violent pro-Saddam rallies in the Sunni Triangle.

What Iraqis need most to start their lives anew, Qanbar said, is "a process of reconciliation ? and this cannot start without giving justice to the victims killed and tortured by Saddam.

Ultimately, our obligation is to persuade the victims, not the terrorists."
For the millions of Iraqis who still bear scars from the brutal regime, said one man at the SCIRI rally, looking up at Saddam's picture as he spoke, "there can be only one verdict: guilty."

Options Emerge Around Saddam Trial Issue

Quote

By GEORGE GEDDA
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP)--Saddam Hussein can't be tried for war crimes until the Iraqis--with heavy influence from American officials _ decide a range of tough issues including whether execution should be an option and whether Iran should play a role in the trial.

Edited by Kevin Street, 17 December 2003 - 05:31 PM.


#175 Kelela

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 12:33 AM

Delvo said;

"Where you're wrong is the part where you think the USA is going to try him, when it's already been established that Iraq will."

Kelela Says;

Yes! Thank you!

I continue to fear the US will try to determine how Saddam will be tried. I still hold out hope that no matter what, THE ENTITLED will decide how to deal with the madman Saddam.....I do not want be a voter in that arrangement, because I'll vote 'for you know what'

Kelela
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#176 Munrock

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 06:51 AM

Saddam isn't going anywhere.  That the Iraqis don't have etheir own government now isn't a problem.  It can wait.
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#177 D'Monix

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 10:05 AM

ROFL

http://cagle.slate.m...7/mackinnon.gif



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