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Major Earthquake in Iran

Natural Disasters Iran Earthquake 2003

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#41 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 01:25 PM

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This will be my last comment in this thread because it's clear to me now that you are completely off your rocker.

Sorry you feel that way. But, I've had worse said about me.

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An entire city has been DESTROYED and yet you seem to think we should be holding a grudge or splitting hairs.

Not so much splitting hairs, or holding a grudge...Just being practical. The people we help and save today may infact be the next Osama, Saddam, or the next generation of suicide bombers that fly highjacked planes into buildings. Not to mention we help a enemy who, most likely, will turn on us at the first opportunity.

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You've all but said that the loss of so much life doesn't bother you in the least.

The loss of life is always sad, but it's not the USA's problem...it's the problem of their enemy...Iran in this case.

Since when did the USA become the world's doctor??? What? Just because America is the last Superpower it's automatically our job to see to the needs of the entire frelling world??? I suppose you believe that the millionaire's in our country should give their money to charity also?

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The Original Version..

The ant busts his ass in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.


The New Liberal Version...

It starts out the same but when winter comes the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and show pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to film of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be, in a country of such wealth that this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Then a representative of the NAAGB (The National Association of Green Bugs) shows up on Night Line and charges the ant with "Green Bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when he sings "It's Not Easy Being Green."

Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS evening news and tell a concerned Dan Rather That they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the summer, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures Of The 80's".

Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act" RECTRO-ACTIVE to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and having nothing left to pay his Retro-Active taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he's in....which just happens to be the ant's old house.... crumbles around him since he doesn't know how to maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV; which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant's food, Bill Clinton is standing before a wildly applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of "Fairness" has dawned in America.

In the above example you strike me as a person that roots for the grasshopper, and you say I'm off MY rocker...Sorry, I think it's the other way around.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#42 Godeskian

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 01:34 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 28 2003, 07:25 PM, said:

The people we help and save today may infact be the next Osama, Saddam, or the next generation of suicide bombers that fly highjacked planes into buildings. Not to mention we help a enemy who, most likely, will turn on us at the first opportunity.
And maybe, if the US saves them today, then tomorrow they will think twice about attacking America/

The best way to stir up resetnment and hatred is to ignore the pain of others. They have just lost something like 10 percent of the population of the city, and turning round and saying

'Frell you, it's not our problem' is a great way to have them think, 'well fine, you won't help us, we'll make you pay'

Defy Gravity!


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#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 01:36 PM

Godeskian, on Dec 28 2003, 02:34 PM, said:

And maybe, if the US saves them today, then tomorrow they will think twice about attacking America/

The best way to stir up resetnment and hatred is to ignore the pain of others. They have just lost something like 10 percent of the population of the city, and turning round and saying

'Frell you, it's not our problem' is a great way to have them think, 'well fine, you won't help us, we'll make you pay'
Good point.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#44 the 'Hawk

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 04:59 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 28 2003, 10:12 AM, said:

Using your example, it be more like Sauruman: The White asking for aide from Gondor after the Ents attacked his tower.
Isengard is not a nation-state. Iran has never raised entire armies and marched them against the fortress of an allied nation. To follow your example, the Ayatollah would've had to sent tens of thousands to descend on England, behind the walls of the English Channel, where the entire frightened population of Europe had fled in terror, only to find that the Indian Army had taken Bushehr and was en route to Tehran. And that just hasn't happened.

If you're trying to compare Muslims to orcs here, you're clearly going in an ill-advised direction.

But more to the point, Iran has called for aid. And America will answer. Just like she answered Armenia. Just like she answered Kobe, Japan. Just like she wishes someone would've been available to answer San Francisco back at the turn of the twentieth century.

Because that's what it comes down to here. The United States has a long history of knowing just how devastating earthquakes can be. For them to simply turn away for political reasons when tomorrow it could just as well be California hurting for aid would be cutting off their coast to spite their face.

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#45 emsparks

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 05:32 PM

Argument over, according to CNN, American aid, SAR teams, and US ARMY helicopters are already on the ground in Iran. AND have been for most of this day….

As it should be…

AND I did pull an enemy’s toddler out of a swimming pool, before she could get water in her mouth. The guy never liked me, but after that he left me alone, and that’s all I asked. Oh and by the way his wife said thank you….

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#46 Ilphi

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 05:44 PM

Well, LOTS, all I can say is you and Bomber Harris would have got on like a house on fire ;) No pun intended?
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 05:49 PM

Ilphi, on Dec 28 2003, 06:44 PM, said:

Well, LOTS, all I can say is you and Bomber Harris would have got on like a house on fire ;) No pun intended?
Who is Bomber Harris?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#48 Ilphi

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 05:53 PM

Bomber Harris was the British Marshal of the Royal Air Force; during World War II he directed mass bombing raids against German cities that resulted in heavy civilian casualties. His most famous incident was the fire-bombing of Dresden, he burned the city to the ground despite the fact it had precious little military significance. His plan was to break the will of the civilians and thus end the war. Of course, it didn't really work - the same thing happened as did with the Blitz in England, with every bomb dropped the resolve of the German people simply strengthened.
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#49 Gina

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 06:44 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 28 2003, 06:58 AM, said:

President (to the homeless and hungry in America): "Sorry but we spent all our money helping our enemy. We don't have the money to feed you or your children, and as for shelter...It all went to help rebuild Iranian homes. Sorry. Maybe next year, if you'r still alive that is..."
LOTS-- America has an almost infinite amount of resources. Even if we sent a 10th of what we have, that would be a blessing to them. Are you seriously saying that you want the Iranian people to go to hell for their goverment's mistakes? Do you really have that little of a heart?

These are civilian people, who are dead and dieing. They asked for our help, and I am damn proud that we are sending people over there. I would hope that even if they didn't ask we still would have sent help.
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#50 Ilphi

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 06:57 PM

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Gina49 said:
LOTS-- America has an almost infinite amount of resources. Even if we sent a 10th of what we have, that would be a blessing to them.

Good God, a tenth? A hundreth funded the Space Program and put a man on the moon. A tenth of the US yearly earnings would be enough to wipe out AIDS in Africa and starvation across most of the undeveloped world :)
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#51 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 07:08 PM

Ilphi, on Dec 28 2003, 06:53 PM, said:

Bomber Harris was the British Marshal of the Royal Air Force; during World War II he directed mass bombing raids against German cities that resulted in heavy civilian casualties. His most famous incident was the fire-bombing of Dresden, he burned the city to the ground despite the fact it had precious little military significance. His plan was to break the will of the civilians and thus end the war. Of course, it didn't really work - the same thing happened as did with the Blitz in England, with every bomb dropped the resolve of the German people simply strengthened.
Would I bomb civilian targets? Only if by doing so, once or twice, it would end the war. Like the US did to Japan with the A- Bomb.

edited to add: I can see bombing a civilian target otherwise. It would have to be with a special, and powerful bomb, otherwise...as you pointed out it only strengthens the enemy's resolve.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 28 December 2003 - 07:09 PM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#52 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 07:15 PM

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LOTS-- America has an almost infinite amount of resources

Ah, so that's why our national deficit is so high.  :sarcasm: And that's also why we are so interested in obtaining oil and other raw materials.  :sarcasm:

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Are you seriously saying that you want the Iranian people to go to hell for their goverment's mistakes? Do you really have that little of a heart?

No, of course not. I really don't care whether they go to Heaven or Hell, or if they are alive. My point is that it IS NOT the problem of the US. It's the problem of an enemey. But this debate is pretty much pointless since Bush has already sent the aide. Man, hope dean doesn't become the Democratic Primary...that'll leave me with nobody to vote for. LOL

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I would hope that even if they didn't ask we still would have sent help.

Oh THAT would go over REAL well. Invade a country to give aide to it's citizens...
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#53 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 07:17 PM

Ilphi, on Dec 28 2003, 07:57 PM, said:

Good God, a tenth? A hundreth funded the Space Program and put a man on the moon. A tenth of the US yearly earnings would be enough to wipe out AIDS in Africa and starvation across most of the undeveloped world :)
And just because America could do as you say, if your stats are correct, means that it's automatically the USA's responsibility to do so?

I suppose you also feel that actors and ballplayers who make millions each year should give a 10th of their yearly earnings back to the fans as well?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#54 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 07:29 PM

Gina49, on Dec 28 2003, 04:44 PM, said:

These are civilian people, who are dead and dieing. They asked for our help, and I am damn proud that we are sending people over there. I would hope that even if they didn't ask we still would have sent help.
You had me up into the end. However, sending help to Iran contrary to the government's wishes is an amazingly bad idea, for a wide variety of reasons...

<Unless by "didn't ask" you mean, "didn't express a preference one way or another", rather than "politely said no".>.

And while it's the obvious right thing to do-- and costs us little, really-- I'm also proud we're extending a helping hand to the PEOPLE of Iran.

LotS: Let's try it this way then, removing the moral component of why this is a good idea:

-- Iran needs help.
-- Ergo, Iran's government can't handle its own problems
-- There's no way for Iran's government to cover up that it needs international aid to work through the earthquake
-- The government loses face and is slightly humiliated in front of its people; the resulting dissatisfaction, coupled with already existing internal tensions, push the people farther down the path of revolution. We may even end up saving the life of somebody who will later become a revolutionary; who knows?
-- For a very small investment, the US ends up leading to the downfall of the current Iran administration.

Does that logic work better for you?

<There ARE cases where sending aid is the morally wrong thing to do-- such as food aid to North Korea-- but I don't think this is one of them...>

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 28 December 2003 - 07:31 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#55 Corwin

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 08:03 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 27 2003, 04:19 PM, said:

LMAO! I'm so sick of that lame excuse, it's not even funny. To use your example, only on a smaller scale, If Person X walks up and punches you in the face...are you going to lower yourself to Person X's position and punch him back? Or are you just going to turn the other cheek and get punched again?
Actually, I'd probably shoot them..... but that's just me... (an armed society is a polite society)

But if Person X did hit me, regardless of how I responded, and the next day I saw them walking across the street and get hit by a car, I would do everything I could to try and help.

The United States is known for its humanitarian assistance and for rebuilding countries after wars.  That "Humanity" is part of what makes this country so great.  The fact that we can not be on good terms with another country's government in NO way relates as to how our government feels about the people of that country.  

In some eyes, that may make us weak.  Personally, I think it is our greatest strength.  The ability to rise above petty differences and help another human being in need is what makes us more than just an animal.


Corwin
"The Enemy is upon us, so Lock and Load, Brothers.  The Emperor Calls and the Forces of Chaos must be driven back.  Though all of us will fall, none of us shall fail!"

#56 Gina

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 08:11 PM

^Well said. I agree 100%. Having the resources to be able to help people is a blessing, I'm glad that we use it for good, not evil.
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#57 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 08:12 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Dec 28 2003, 08:29 PM, said:

Does that logic work better for you?

<There ARE cases where sending aid is the morally wrong thing to do-- such as food aid to North Korea-- but I don't think this is one of them...>
That logic would work if the goal of the US is to overthrow the government of Iran...To which, I've not heard or seen anything even remotely suggesting that that is the US's goal.

As for the sending food to North Korea....Don't even get me started on that one.  ;)
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#58 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 08:20 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 28 2003, 06:12 PM, said:

That logic would work if the goal of the US is to overthrow the government of Iran...To which, I've not heard or seen anything even remotely suggesting that that is the US's goal.
LotS: Then check this out....

http://www.rferl.org...62003151041.asp

Quote

As student protests against the government continue in Iran, debate is growing in Washington about U.S. policy toward Tehran. On the one hand, the Bush administration has provided strong rhetorical support for the demonstrators. But for now, President George W. Bush has stopped short of publicly promoting "regime change."

Granted, our official policy isn't regime change. I can guarantee you, however, that if revolution was to break out in Iran, the US would be far more likely to lend support to the rebels than the government. Rumsfeld-- one of the most important administration officials-- is also pushing to make "regime change" the official policy. If you like, feel free to interpret lending aid as a subtle way of trying to bring about that goal, through the aforementioned chain.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#59 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 09:35 PM

Here's an article from those wacky lefties at Christian Science Monitor:

http://www.csmonitor...01s01-wome.html

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The US, joining dozens of other countries in providing emergency aid after Friday's earthquake, delivered about 120,000 pounds of medical supplies and water to the nation once branded by President Bush as part of the "axis of evil."

120,000 pounds probaly isn't nearly enough, but that's a damn good start. :).

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"The reception was very warm," said Lt. Col. Vic Harris in a phone interview after returning to his base in Kuwait. "We worked side by side with Iranian soldiers to download the supplies. The Iranian base commander said he hoped this would be the beginning of a new relationship."

Quote

Diplomats and analysts see Washington's offer of help - and Tehran's willingness to accept it - as a test of how far each is prepared to go in publicizing a new softening of the antagonism that has marked their relationship for a quarter-century. "The Americans are starting to send in aid and it's a very positive step," says one European diplomat reached in Tehran. "Whether the momentum of goodwill is sustained is a different question."

Agonozing. As always, the blame is shifted to the US.... *sigh*.

Quote

If recent history is any guide, aid extended at such a moment can open doors that seem welded shut. Here in Turkey, a country which suffered from an equally destructive earthquake just over four years ago, generations of enmity with neighboring Greece reached a historic turning point when Greek officials sent over rescue teams. Not long after that August 1999 earthquake, Athens also suffered a major quake, and Turks in turn sent in their best emergency teams.

Excellent point.

Anyway, read the whole article.

I'm skeptical about how much this will change political realities, but there's always hope. And it couldn't hurt. :).

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 28 December 2003 - 09:38 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#60 Norville

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Posted 28 December 2003 - 10:06 PM

Quote

I know many Iranians here in the Bay Area and they are the kindest, nicest people, generous and hospitable.

Yes, I've known some okay Iranians. I have no love of Iran (though I do have fascination), but don't feel like blaming all the people on that fact. There's an Iranian family in my area who bought a large house that had been mostly-constructed and then pretty much abandoned for a while. Every Christmas since they moved in, they've made the former annoying monster of a building wonderful, with the engineer father and one of his sons mapping on their computer the best way to drape the Christmas lights to entertain the community. They've done a shark; a ship; in the aftermath of 9/11 in 2001 they did either the American eagle or a dove of peace (I wasn't quite certain which it was, but leant more toward the eagle); the Statue of Liberty (which was sadly blown down in a violent winter storm)... So, consider them the enemy if you wish, because they're Iranian, but that particular family is trying to give something to their community, which is what we want our immigrants to do, isn't it?
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/





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