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Major Earthquake in Iran

Natural Disasters Iran Earthquake 2003

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#81 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:02 AM

Actually that's the *only* point.  We're not helping to gain anything. We're doing it because it's the right damn thing to do and that's what makes us better, dammit!
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#82 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:16 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Dec 31 2003, 06:02 AM, said:

Actually that's the *only* point.  We're not helping to gain anything. We're doing it because it's the right damn thing to do and that's what makes us better, dammit!
Thank you, Lil.  There are few things more disturbing than the use of a horrific human tragedy like this to grind a political axe or somehow use it as a piece of evidence to buttress one's own preconceived ideology.  The U.S. government is doing exactly what it should be doing here-- providing aid to the victims and helping to alleviate their suffering and worrying about the political implications later.
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#83 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:17 AM

I see. So, if a family member is trapped inside their house, and the house is on fire...And right next door their neighbor is trapped in their house, their house also on fire...And you and that neighbor can't stand each other. Which one are you going to try and help? You only have time to rescue one of them before the houses burn down...

In the above example, the US has decided to try and help the neighbor they can't stand...instead of trying to help their own.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 31 December 2003 - 01:18 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#84 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:20 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 31 2003, 06:17 AM, said:

I see. So, if a family member is trapped inside their house, and the house is on fire...And right next door their neighbor is trapped in their house, their house also on fire...And you and that neighbor can't stand each other. Which one are you going to try and help? You only have time to rescue one of them before the houses burn down...

In the above example, the US has decided to try and help the neighbor they can't stand...instead of trying to help their own.
Show me the disaster relief units that were diverted from San Bernadino to Iran and I'll take your argument seriously.  And the proportion of the two disasters wasn't remotely comparable, either.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#85 Gina

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:39 AM

Ok, I gave up a long to ago on trying to convince LotS of our way of thinking. It's pretty much pointless. He's going to think the way he wants to think, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let it bother me!  :glare:

I heard that the number of dead or missing is up to 28,000. Damn, all those lives....gone.  :(
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#86 Corwin

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:15 AM

Thanks Zack!

The order of magnitude of something like this is staggering.  If we had something like this in the US we would be overwhelmed by it also, at least for a short time.  In most other countries though, they don't have the resources to begin to recover from this in less time than a generation, much less provide immediate assistance for food, medical supplies and treatment, temporary shelters, fresh water, etc.  And that doesn't even begin to realize the impact of the loss of life on that kind of scale.

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#87 Shalamar

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:35 AM

In September of 1900 The City/Island of Galveston, Texas suffered one of the greatest natural disasters in the history of the United States.

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Historians contend that between 10,000 and 12,000 people died during the storm, at least 6,000 of them on Galveston Island. More than 3,600 homes were destroyed on Galveston Island and the added toll on commercial structures created a monetary loss of $30 million, about $700 million in today's dollars.

Even if the upper limit of 12,000 is true this is only at best half of what the people of the city of Bam have suffered.

The San Francisco Earthquake of 1906 had an estimated 700 deaths, though there are some that feel that this is off ( they estimate 2,100 to 2,800 deaths ) again barely a 10th of what Bam and it's residents have suffered.
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#88 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:38 AM

MuseZack, on Dec 31 2003, 02:20 AM, said:

Show me the disaster relief units that were diverted from San Bernadino to Iran and I'll take your argument seriously.  And the proportion of the two disasters wasn't remotely comparable, either.
You honestly think some weren't? Do you really think that some of the relieve workers, and rescue aide wouldn't be in San Bernadino right now, if they were helping our enemy? Can't find a site stating that any have been diverted, but I can't see some of them not being in CA if they weren't in Iran.

And I never said the 2 disasters were equal.

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Ok, I gave up a long to ago on trying to convince LotS of our way of thinking. It's pretty much pointless. He's going to think the way he wants to think, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let it bother me!

You won't change me mind, not when I feel I'm right. If you can tell me how aiding our enemy is in our best interests, then I'll consider it.

If we didn't send aide, the Government of Iran (Our enemy, for the past couple decades) would be seriously burdened with the disaster. Hence they wouldn't be able to make problems for the US anytime in the near future. Now, though, with the aide they are getting, they very well could be. And, might I add, they've already shown how grateful they are, the SOB's:

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KERMAN, Iran (Reuters) - President Mohammad Khatami said Tuesday U.S. aid to earthquake victims in Iran, while welcome, would not alter the state of relations between the two arch foes who broke off ties nearly a quarter century ago.

"I don't think this incident will change our relations with the United States," Khatami told a news conference in the capital of southeastern Kerman province where officials say up to 50,000 people were killed in a quake that struck Friday.

And, besides, it's not like they haven't recovered from this same type of disaster by themselves before. Here's the link: http://aolsvc.news.a...227061409990004

for those who don't have AOL.

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June 21, 1990 - 35,000 died and 100,000 were injured in the worst recorded disaster in Iran. The quake, which registered 7.7 on the Richter scale, devastated the Caspian regions of Gilan and Zanjan. Some 500,000 were made homeless.

And in 1990, they never asked for US aide, and never got it. They made out just fine.
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#89 jon3831

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 03:09 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 30 2003, 11:38 PM, said:

And I never said the 2 disasters were equal.
Yet you're making statements like "...the US has decided to try and help the neighbor they can't stand...instead of trying to help their own."

Last time I checked, there were at least 75 search and rescue personnel attached to 4 teams to cover a fairly small geographical area. In fact, IIRC, they sent people home because they ran up against a reality of emergency management: Sometimes you have too many people to do a particular job.

So, I'll ask a similar question to Zack's:

Can you show that the SAR response was any less capable or thorough than it would've been if the US had not sent aid to Iran?

Edited by jon3831, 31 December 2003 - 03:09 AM.

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#90 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 10:17 AM

jon3831, on Dec 31 2003, 04:09 AM, said:

So, I'll ask a similar question to Zack's:

Can you show that the SAR response was any less capable or thorough than it would've been if the US had not sent aid to Iran?
I've searched, and the answer is "No".

Still doesn't make aiding our enemies right though. You aid your enemy today, and tomorrow he make be strong enough to take you out.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#91 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 10:29 AM

Even going further than the immense and overwhelming humanitarian reasons to help you have to look at one simple fact.  Our aid and presence of our relief workers will undermine the hold the Iranian government has over the hearts and minds of the people.

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LOTS: So, as harsh and cruel as it sounds, if they don't do for us...why should the US do for them? Especially when Iran is NOT an ally of the US. I know if I was a doctor and President Bush said: "Go to Iran and help them." My response would probably be along the lines of: "Go to hell."

My response would be what better way to undermine the rather nasty government of Iran then to go right around them and aid the Iranian people.  The Iranian government can cry all it wants about the United States being the Great Satan but how silly does that look to someone who was pulled out of the wreckage by US rescue workers or for that matter had their family pulled out by US personnel.  Trying listening to your government throw stones at the imperialist pigs when the food you’ve lived off for the past few weeks happens to be stamped “Made in USA” and is delivered by US citizens.  

Think what it will do for the image of US soldiers in Iran when US soldiers arriving in Black Hawks are pulling people out of the wreckage, delivering food, and providing shelter to people.  Try telling a child 10 years from now that they should be a suicide bomber against the US when the only memory they have of the United States is some GI giving them food and some candy.  We have a chance to do some good in the world and to sow some good will among the Iranian people with the hope that it will grow.  To pass up a chance to do both would be a great injustice to ourselves and the people who are helping.  

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LOTS: Not so much splitting hairs, or holding a grudge...Just being practical. The people we help and save today may infact be the next Osama, Saddam, or the next generation of suicide bombers that fly highjacked planes into buildings.

Or they may be the next person to rise to power that remembers the fact that people from the US and the West spent weeks rescuing and feeding them and their neighbors.  

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Hawk: Iran has never raised entire armies and marched them against the fortress of an allied nation.

Hawk as a point of contention before we call Iran an innocent.  The Iranian Hostage Crisis is still something that is fresh in the minds of many Americans.  That isn’t a reason not to lend aid but let us also not forget the past either.
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#92 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 10:36 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Dec 31 2003, 11:29 AM, said:

Even going further than the immense and overwhelming humanitarian reasons to help you have to look at one simple fact.  Our aid and presence of our relief workers will undermine the hold the Iranian government has over the hearts and minds of the people.


My response would be what better way to undermine the rather nasty government of Iran then to go right around them and aid the Iranian people.  The Iranian government can cry all it wants about the United States being the Great Satan but how silly does that look to someone who was pulled out of the wreckage by US rescue workers or for that matter had their family pulled out by US personnel.  Trying listening to your government throw stones at the imperialist pigs when the food you’ve lived off for the past few weeks happens to be stamped “Made in USA” and is delivered by US citizens. 

Think what it will do for the image of US soldiers in Iran when US soldiers arriving in Black Hawks are pulling people out of the wreckage, delivering food, and providing shelter to people.  Try telling a child 10 years from now that they should be a suicide bomber against the US when the only memory they have of the United States is some GI giving them food and some candy.  We have a chance to do some good in the world and to sow some good will among the Iranian people with the hope that it will grow.  To pass up a chance to do both would be a great injustice to ourselves and the people who are helping. 
Ah, but repeatedly throughout this thread, I've heard comments of: "It's the government that's our enemy, not the people. The people there have NO choice, they have to do what the government says."

Now all of a sudden it's going to matter what the Iranian people think? Their opinions are now a matter of their government's concern? The quote that comes right to mind is:

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They didn't have a choice! They either went along with what the government told them to do or else they disappeared, or their family members disappeared. They don't have free speech and they DIDN"T elect their leaders. Those that are in power took it and use brutal tactics to keep the populace in line.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#93 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:25 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Dec 31 2003, 03:29 PM, said:

Hawk as a point of contention before we call Iran an innocent.  The Iranian Hostage Crisis is still something that is fresh in the minds of many Americans.  That isn’t a reason not to lend aid but let us also not forget the past either.
Iran isn't an innocent, but neither is the United States in this scenario.  Americans tend to forget that the U.S. overthrew an elected government in Iran to install the Shah in the 1950s, and armed and trained his armed forces and feared intelligence service for decades.  We also supported a neighbor of Iran that invaded it, used poison gas against its troops, fired Scud missiles into its cities, and killed something like 500,000 Iranians.  Who was that friend of ours who did that?  Oh, yeah.  Saddam Hussein.  So, yes.  Taking hostages was bad and the Iranian mullahs who run that country are a bunch of asshats.  But the United States is pretty far from having clean hands in that part of the world, even if Americans enjoy acting the part of the aggrieved innocent.

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#94 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:28 AM

MuseZack, on Dec 31 2003, 11:25 AM, said:

Iran isn't an innocent, but neither is the United States in this scenario.  Americans tend to forget that the U.S. overthrew an elected government in Iran to install the Shah in the 1950s, and armed and trained his armed forces and feared intelligence service for decades.  We also supported a neighbor of Iran that invaded it, used poison gas against its troops, fired Scud missiles into its cities, and killed something like 500,000 Iranians.  Who was that friend of ours who did that?  Oh, yeah.  Saddam Hussein.  So, yes.  Taking hostages was bad and the Iranian mullahs who run that country are a bunch of asshats.  But the United States is pretty far from having clean hands in that part of the world, even if Americans enjoy acting the part of the aggrieved innocent.

Zack
I've never said the USA was an innocent.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#95 Corwin

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Aegis!  That is it Exactly.

LORD of the SWORD, on Dec 31 2003, 09:36 AM, said:

Ah, but repeatedly throughout this thread, I've heard comments of: "It's the government that's our enemy, not the people. The people there have NO choice, they have to do what the government says."

Now all of a sudden it's going to matter what the Iranian people think? Their opinions are now a matter of their government's concern? The quote that comes right to mind is:

Quote

They didn't have a choice! They either went along with what the government told them to do or else they disappeared, or their family members disappeared. They don't have free speech and they DIDN"T elect their leaders. Those that are in power took it and use brutal tactics to keep the populace in line.


LOTS ---  It ALWAYS matters what the people think, even if those people can do very little about their government situation right now (you may remember a couple of citizen led regime changes--- The American and French Revolutions).  The Iran of today is not the same Iran of 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago.  Yes, I remember the Iran hostage crisis also, but most of the people that had taken power then are dead now.  While I will not say that the current government is moderate, I will say that they are not as extremist as they were in the past.  The current crop of student demonstrations bear this out.  Please remember that most of the news the people hear is only what the government wants them to hear.  They do not have a free press.

And aside from the humanitarian effort, this is a golden opportunity to get past the government censors and show the peole of Iran exactly what most Americans are like.

Freedom can only exist with Hope.  

If we give only a few more people there some hope for a brighter future, we will have been repaid every single cent we spend.  It may take another 10-15 years, but we will have helped bring about regime change because of one good deed that the PEOPLE took notice of.
"The Enemy is upon us, so Lock and Load, Brothers.  The Emperor Calls and the Forces of Chaos must be driven back.  Though all of us will fall, none of us shall fail!"

#96 the 'Hawk

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:57 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Dec 31 2003, 10:29 AM, said:

Hawk as a point of contention before we call Iran an innocent.  The Iranian Hostage Crisis is still something that is fresh in the minds of many Americans.  That isn’t a reason not to lend aid but let us also not forget the past either.
You're putting words in my beak there, Aegis. Didn't say Iran was innocent. But rather, the people of Iran didn't do anything to deserve ingratitude after an earthquake. All they could do was call for help.

Yeah, the hostage crisis should be a prime concern of all American personnel working in the region. Security should be on everyone's mind in the region. No question. Last thing we need is the Iranians to be accused of taking hostages. That'd be grounds for war. And I don't think Iran's willing to play for those kinds of stakes with President Bush in office. Good on him.

Keep 1979 in mind, definitely. But not to the point where it means not intervening. That was my point. Remember what's come before, but focus on what's come since.

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#97 Gina

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 03:51 PM

LotS-- You do know that we're helping Iran, right. We're not at war with Iran, we're at war with Iraq.
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#98 G1223

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 04:01 PM

I think we should not worry about security. We should do a varient of the Russian strategy. Grab the aid workers get bombed. And also get the Aid cut off.

I suspect the government knowing this beofre hand will be just as they were from the Russians very willing to keep the crowds under control.

#99 Norville

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 04:02 PM

Quote

We're not at war with Iran, we're at war with Iraq.

Yes, but Iran has been a thorn in our side for many years, and has been called part of the "axis of evil", so how dare we help them? I guess that's LOTS's point. I'm a little more interested in trying to be humane and help people, despite their politics and religion, but that's my weird problem. Of course the Iranian government is going to badmouth receiving help from "the Great Satan". But they're probably accepting it anyway, or am I wrong?
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#100 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 04:31 PM

Norville, on Dec 31 2003, 09:02 PM, said:

Quote

We're not at war with Iran, we're at war with Iraq.

Yes, but Iran has been a thorn in our side for many years, and has been called part of the "axis of evil", so how dare we help them? I guess that's LOTS's point. I'm a little more interested in trying to be humane and help people, despite their politics and religion, but that's my weird problem. Of course the Iranian government is going to badmouth receiving help from "the Great Satan". But they're probably accepting it anyway, or am I wrong?
From the media reports, the Iranian government has thanked the US for the aid even while saying that it was separate from any political issues (which is fair enough, really).  Meanwhile, the Iranian people are treating the American aid workers like visiting rock stars, cheering them, asking to have their pictures taken with them, etc.  

If any of you out there who are so eager to deny aid to suffering people would actually do a little reading on the country, you'd discover that a great many people in Iran like Americans, dislike their fundamentalist rulers, and very much want better relations with the United States.  But hey, don't let that stop you from wishing we'd let them all freeze to death in the winter cold.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin



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