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Dean says Bush "most dangerous president"...

Election 2004 Howard Dean 2003

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#21 Kosh

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Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:42 PM

Delvo, on Dec 30 2003, 06:57 PM, said:

Godeskian, on Dec 30 2003, 04:39 PM, said:

I think throwing stones about 4 decades is generally a bad idea if you are trying to make a point, after all, wasn't Bush senior also president for 10% of that time?
Yes, and he's one of those liberal Democrats he was complaining about, just like this Bush is. What does he have to do with anything?
:lol:
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#22 Smitty

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Posted 30 December 2003 - 11:24 PM

The liberals'/Democrats' "Boogeyman" Bush tactic continues.

And the beat goes on...

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#23 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 09:44 AM

Quote

Kevin Street:  Just wait Rov, the Cheney/Bush team isn't done yet... :(

A fact to which, I am glad everyday since at least we have a President in office that has some semblance of a spine.  He might not be anything approaching a great president but he’s better than the jokers the Democrats have put forth.  

Quote

Kevin Street: Seriously, a lot of Bush's mistakes are of the kind that will be paid by the next generation - the effects just won't be obvious for a few years. But in years to come, the deteriorating environment and mounting federal debt will leave no doubt that Bush was the worst president of the last hundred years or so.

That sounds so panicky that I’d expect it from someone during the Great Depression who spent their time declaring FDR was destroying the very fabric of the nation.  These charges have accompanied every President and for ones working in difficult times the charges against them are worse.  To try to lay the charge of history on bush before he is even out of office sounds a tad silly.
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#24 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:12 PM

It's obviously an absurd, hyperbolic statement, if for no other reason than Bush unlike his predecessors isn't up against an adversary with the ability to obliterate the United States.

That said, Bush is dangerous.  That's not a value judgement, it's simply a statement of fact.  As a response to the September 11th attacks, the invasion of Afghanistan was a pretty conservative, logical reaction-- remove the regime that harbored the main strength of Al Qaeda.  However, moving on to an invasion of Iraq was far from an obvious second step.  It was an audacious attempt to "drain the swamp" of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism through remaking the Middle East by force of arms (nobody still believes this war was about WMD, do they?).  If it succeeds, and democracy and prosperity does bloom across the blighted region, it will go down as one of the most strategically brilliant moves in history.  However (and it's a big however), it's also an incredibly risky and yes, dangerous strategy.  If it fails (and the jury is most certainly still out here), Bush will have made the terrorism problem worse than ever while committing the U.S. to an open-ended occupation in a hostile region.  

So laud Bush for his courage and audacity all you want, but don't pretend that the course of action he's undertaken in the Middle East isn't in fact dangerous.  We could be making the world a safer place.  Or we could be breeding the next generation of radical Islamic terrorists in the slums of Samarra, Falloujah, and Sadr City.  It's simply too early to tell...
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#25 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:19 PM

Quote

nobody still believes this war was about WMD, do they?

Betcha people do.  ;)
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#26 Rov Judicata

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:30 PM

Enmar-- Heh. Perhaps political invective is being refined here and exported. Hadn't thought of that...

Quote

Kevin: Seriously, a lot of Bush's mistakes are of the kind that will be paid by the next generation - the effects just won't be obvious for a few years. But in years to come, the deteriorating environment and mounting federal debt will leave no doubt that Bush was the worst president of the last hundred years or so.

That-- or variations thereof-- have been said about every presidenc in recent memory. We'll see what happens.

Quote

Zack: It's obviously an absurd, hyperbolic statement, if for no other reason than Bush unlike his predecessors isn't up against an adversary with the ability to obliterate the United States.

Exactly. I'll cede that Bush is dangerous; heck, that's part of his appeal. But calling him the most dangerous since '48 moves Dean from politics to the cartoon network with Sharpton and Kucinich. Dean hasn't done himself any favours in the past few weeks. We're entering primary season, and people looking at the race for the first time may have a hard time taking Dean seriously. I don't blame them, at this rate.
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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#27 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:29 PM

It sounds like Mr. Dean should be up here in Canada running the NDP. (left of the Liberals and full of blame America fury)  :fear:

Are the nine Democratic candidates really the best that party has to offer?

They all seem so.....small.  :oh:
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#28 the 'Hawk

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:35 PM

^ Suddenly, the Democratic presidential nomination is given its true form--- the Ring of Power!

(Does this make Clinton and Sauron the same thing?)

:coolninja:
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#29 G1223

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:46 PM

Every American President has been Dangerous.  At least since we made our entry onto the world stage. We had some that were dangerous becasue they were agressive and others were dangerous because they lowered our guard to our enemies and the enemy took advantage of it.


If you think we are the only dangerous nation out there then you are mistaken.  China with an towards expanding it's frontier by dragging back in the Rebellious provinces Tiawan being one of them.  

Russia with it's still falling in on itself framework. Criminal elements that operate openly and simple people who are trained to follow strongmen with a minimum of complaint.

EU with it's unstopped attack upon minorities (both ethnic and religious) shows itself as being just as bad some parts of the third world.(Can you say Ethnic Cleansing)  

North Korea which one day says one threat upon one another. Remember we only said they were an Axis of Evil they proved it with threats against theUS Japan and South Korea.

Iran Now sandwitched between two elements of the US with a growning Nuclear Weapons Programs

Syria which has been building Chemicle weapons for decades from before the End of the Cold War.

Suadia Arbia which is playuing both sides against the middle for their own ends.  They are neither Friend nor Foe ...Yet.

And Bush is the biggest danger to the world.... Yeah right.

#30 Delvo

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:59 PM

the'Hawk, on Dec 31 2003, 05:35 PM, said:

^ Suddenly, the Democratic presidential nomination is given its true form--- the Ring of Power!
You mean you didn't realize before now that it's not a coincidence that the nine are The Nine?

#31 the 'Hawk

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:00 PM

^ Well, I haven't exactly had to pay any more attention than absolutely necessary to this nonsense. Not my country. Not my problem.

But that's really quite something.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#32 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:12 PM

Quote

Zack: It's obviously an absurd, hyperbolic statement, if for no other reason than Bush unlike his predecessors isn't up against an adversary with the ability to obliterate the United States.

I would expect this type of statement from a isolationist.  Terrorism isn’t a strong enough enemy to destroy the industrial centers, raze the farmlands, and wreck the cities of the United States.  Then really the only hostile foes that the US has been at war with that had that capability was Britain on two occasions.  Germany and Japan never had the capability to do more than pinprick at the CONUS.  The USSR would have been the most dangerous adversary that had the capability to obliterate the US.  Now the Confederacy posed a serious threat if it had defeated the North by separating a large chunk of the nation and furthermore by undermining the principles that hold the United States together as a nation.

The threat posed by terrorism is again a threat to the principles of the nation.  If terrorism is not challenged and destroyed in some manner it will succeed in destroying something of the United States.  How long will people be willing to come under attack after attack before they start militarizing the country and repealing entire sections of the Constitution?  Not something along the lines of the stepped up security we have now or the Patriot Act but a much deeper, more immense, and far reaching threat to the principles that govern the United States. Terrorism can’t destroy the material nature of the United States but then who needs to do that when you can destroy the very nature of the system.          

Quote

Zack: That said, Bush is dangerous. That's not a value judgement, it's simply a statement of fact.

Actually it is a value judgement since you can’t give me a measurable amount of how dangerous Bush happens to be.  Unless some empirical formula unknown to me exists for assessing how dangerous a President is? It can be argued just as easily that not taking Bush’s actions since 9-11 would have been just as dangerous in the long term as not taking them.  As you said it is too early to tell and it is far too hard to extrapolate what would have happened without an invasion of Iraq.  Myself I would call Bush’s action thus far audacious rather than dangerous.  

Quote

Hawk:  ^ Suddenly, the Democratic presidential nomination is given its true form--- the Ring of Power!

(Does this make Clinton and Sauron the same thing?)

9 Democratic Canidates...  9 Ring Wraiths? :blink:

The Fellowship of The White House:

Frodo: Bush
Sam: Cheney
Gandalf: Powell
Legalos: Tom Ridge
Aragorn: Condi Rice
Gimli: Rumsfeld
Boromir: Ashcroft
Pippin: ????
Merry:????

And have to nominate Tommy Franks for Eowyn... <snicker>
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#33 Rov Judicata

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:22 PM

^

Wolfowitz has to be Pippin. He just HAS to.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#34 Smitty

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:31 PM

Where does Laura fit in?

-cs™

#35 MuseZack

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:41 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 1 2004, 12:22 AM, said:

^

Wolfowitz has to be Pippin. He just HAS to.
More like Gollum, actually.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#36 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:43 PM

MuseZack, on Dec 31 2003, 07:41 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 1 2004, 12:22 AM, said:

^

Wolfowitz has to be Pippin. He just HAS to.
More like Gollum, actually.
I'd pick Saddam myself for Gollum.

I figured might as well start a thread off of this in The Beach before we took over this one. ;)

The Lord of the White House, Carried over from OT.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#37 the 'Hawk

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:45 PM

^ I was going to say Grima Wormtongue.... ;)

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#38 G1223

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:56 PM

I was thinking We could have Dean as Gollum since he seems to be somehow pited for doing silly things. I just hope folks realize that he would say/do anything to get his office.

#39 aphrael

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 09:54 PM

MuseZack, on Dec 31 2003, 04:12 PM, said:

It's obviously an absurd, hyperbolic statement, if for no other reason than Bush unlike his predecessors isn't up against an adversary with the ability to obliterate the United States.

That said, Bush is dangerous.  That's not a value judgement, it's simply a statement of fact.  As a response to the September 11th attacks, the invasion of Afghanistan was a pretty conservative, logical reaction-- remove the regime that harbored the main strength of Al Qaeda.  However, moving on to an invasion of Iraq was far from an obvious second step.  It was an audacious attempt to "drain the swamp" of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism through remaking the Middle East by force of arms (nobody still believes this war was about WMD, do they?).  If it succeeds, and democracy and prosperity does bloom across the blighted region, it will go down as one of the most strategically brilliant moves in history.  However (and it's a big however), it's also an incredibly risky and yes, dangerous strategy.  If it fails (and the jury is most certainly still out here), Bush will have made the terrorism problem worse than ever while committing the U.S. to an open-ended occupation in a hostile region. 

So laud Bush for his courage and audacity all you want, but don't pretend that the course of action he's undertaken in the Middle East isn't in fact dangerous.  We could be making the world a safer place.  Or we could be breeding the next generation of radical Islamic terrorists in the slums of Samarra, Falloujah, and Sadr City.  It's simply too early to tell...
In total agreement with you.

:elf:

#40 aphrael

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 09:59 PM

MuseZack, on Dec 31 2003, 06:41 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 1 2004, 12:22 AM, said:

^

Wolfowitz has to be Pippin. He just HAS to.
More like Gollum, actually.
All of the White House key personnel are  Gollums, in my opinion.  

:elf:



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