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Did the "Crocodile Hunter" go too far?

Media TV Crocodile Hunter Daughter

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#41 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:38 AM

Delvo, on Jan 3 2004, 05:33 AM, said:

Think about what would have happened if the crocodile had snapped at him. His assistants all leap in there and one of them takes the baby while the crocodile is distracted with Steve, since the crocodile wasn't going to get the baby "first". How is that different from what would have happened if a crocodile were to misbehave while Steve is doing a show alone? Either way, Steve's the one in the crocodile's face taking the risk. Anybody else around has Steve between them and the crocodile just like the baby did.

....and how is this scenario better as a news headline?  "Steve Irwin Assistant Mauled Saving Steve's Baby Son"

Compared to this one:  "Steve Irwin Mauled By Croc While Assistant Saves Son"

No matter the scenario, almost all of the possible headlines range from negative to horrifying.

Edited by Zoxesyr, 03 January 2004 - 12:46 AM.

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#42 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:44 AM

Jid, on Jan 3 2004, 05:34 AM, said:

For the sake of argument, let's assume we have an "expert" in cattle.

Now, this expert puts his 6 year old youngest son in the center of an 8 foot wide, open gate, and says "This herd of 200 head of fast moving cattle will not run you over if you wave your arms and yell a lot.  Instead they'll turn down the chute."

He's not even with his dad, mind you, just standing there while his dad and uncle chase the cattle down.  And they move pretty fast when you chase them.

Wanna meet the six year old?  Well, you're out of luck, he's almost 22 now ;)
The "expert" in cattle would also have an understanding that cattle have been domesticated for 10000 years, and have an inbred response to humans of almost any size.

The "expert" would not have been carrying his infant son in one arm while waving at the cattle to move them through the chutes.   Note that you were 6, small enough to slip through the fencing, and old enough to move on your own and understand and obey orders.  There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between an infant and a 6 year old.

I know this because my father's family were farmers and owned cattle too, I've been around farms while growing up.

Crocs aren't domesticated, even ones in zoos or other cages.
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#43 Jid

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:52 AM

^ yes, but I've seen even the most domesticated cattle get *very* wild.  I've said it once, I'll say it again - give me a choice between Steve Irwin with an attacking Croc, and my Dad with a Bull or cow going nuts, and I'll take Steve Irwin ;)

The common thread to both is respect, knowledge, and preparation.  It's quite obvious, at least to my eye, just how careful and focused Steve Irwin is.  Had the cattle kept going, there'd be no way a pudgy 6 year old could get safe in time - and I knew my own abilities in that regard.  (And was far more frightened than the child probably was)  It wasn't like he let the baby crawl around on the ground.
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#44 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:53 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 04:58 AM, said:

What Uncle Sid said.  I am floored that anyone is even defending this stunt.  And Jid using your kid as a publicity stunt to further your political agenda?  Low.  Very very low if that's what he was intending.
O.k. Lillian, Let's play devil's advocate and talk about the other side. :devil:

As a councellor taking this to a hearing or a trial, how would you set up the defense against a charge of child endangerment?  What questions would you ask the prosecutor?  What evidence would you contest or exclude from the jury?  What points would you make in the opening, closing statements?  Who would you call as a witness?

Just an outline, no need to go into details.  And penmanship doesn't matter... :hehe:
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#45 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:55 AM

Jid, on Jan 3 2004, 05:52 AM, said:

^ yes, but I've seen even the most domesticated cattle get *very* wild.  I've said it once, I'll say it again - give me a choice between Steve Irwin with an attacking Croc, and my Dad with a Bull or cow going nuts, and I'll take Steve Irwin ;)
What about the 3rd choice:  Not going in at all?

Does the infant get to make that choice?
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#46 parisindy

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:59 AM

Zoxesyr, on Jan 3 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

Does the infant get to make that choice?
thats a completely different ball of wax and has nothing to do with the topic being discussed

Edited by parisindy, 03 January 2004 - 01:00 AM.

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#47 Jid

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:02 AM

^Of course not.  Infants are entirely reliant on their parents.

In this case, one parent has good credentials, and has spent his entire life studying and observing crocodile behaviour.  The mother, I'm not so sure on, but obviously trusts her husband enough to do it.

He was cradling the child away from the Croc.  He was carrying food.  He knows exactly what to look for and his eyes were on the Croc, not posing for a good shot for the cameras.

Did the infant get a choice?  No.  Was the child in immediate danger?  I'd again say, no.

On the other hand, if you cradle your child as you cross the street, is there the risk a car could lose control and strike you and your child?  Yes.  Are you still going to cross the street?  Do you have to?  What of the infant's choice?
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#48 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:11 AM

Jid, on Jan 3 2004, 06:02 AM, said:

On the other hand, if you cradle your child as you cross the street, is there the risk a car could lose control and strike you and your child?  Yes.  Are you still going to cross the street?  Do you have to?  What of the infant's choice?
O.k. back to the PR part of this:  Do you cross a busy intersection against the light carrying an infant, knowing that a TV crew is broadcasting this live?  Even if you know you can get across, what will it look like on TV?  Like you are taking a terrible risk for no good reason.
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#49 silverwind

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:13 AM

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The mother, I'm not so sure on, but obviously trusts her husband enough to do it.

Terri's qualifications with wildlife (and Steve's too) can be found here:  http://www.crocodile...erri/index.html

More info on his "zoo crew" can be found at the Animal Planet website.
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#50 parisindy

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:13 AM

ggaaahh this conversation is something i shouldn't have even gotten in to....

the nit pics aren't worth it...if steve thought bob was safe that's enough for me...end of story
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#51 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:14 AM

Zoxesyr, on Jan 2 2004, 09:53 PM, said:

O.k. Lillian, Let's play devil's advocate and talk about the other side. :devil:
Oh MUST I????????

Quote

As a councellor taking this to a hearing or a trial, how would you set up the defense against a charge of child endangerment?

I'd argue that no laws were broken.  I'd argue that every precaution to ensure safety was taken.  I'd argue Delvo's point about the "assistants" jumping in.  Finally, I'd argue that I was an "expert".

If I were a juror I'd be unconvinced.  Because no matter HOW you slice it, it WAS (as even Jid admits)  a calculated risk.  And that's just plain old fashioned not okay.  You don't TAKE calculated risks with your  baby. And defending it on the grounds that it was "calculated" makes no sense at all.  That's like saying that the fact that a murder was intentional instead of accidental makes everything okay.   :wacko: It doesn't.  It makes it WORSE.  Because it was INTENTIONAL.
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#52 silverwind

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:15 AM

Zoxesyr, on Jan 3 2004, 12:11 AM, said:

Like you are taking a terrible risk for no good reason.
Okay, if you haven't gotten my point yet about the reason Steve takes the risks he does, I give up. :eh:
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#53 parisindy

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:15 AM

ahhh there's to many damn kids in the world anyway
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#54 Uncle Sid

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:20 AM

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And this, methinks, is why he has an entire team of specialists and spotters, and why they do rehearsals of *everything* risky they plan to do in those enclosures. If you had minimum 5 people (specialists, no less) standing back, watching you work, would you have been able to pull that disk drive out and cause the memory loss?

It's still possible to have screw ups no matter how many people are watching.  However, to make the point that even professionals, including large numbers of professionals, make mistakes, take the break up of shuttle Columbia.  How many people were there on the ground and in the shuttle trying to ensure a safe take off and landing?  A lot more than five.  And they actually *did* see what caused the craft to break up in descent, before the descent.  Yet, not only did they fail to fix it, they failed to recognize that it could be a problem.  Actually, one or two people noticed but weren't taken seriously.  This is why we aren't sending infants and schoolteachers into orbit (anymore).  Yeah, things usually work out fine, but when they don't you've just lost the farm.  Yes, that kid could have been perfectly fine, but you just don't take the risk if you don't have to.  

There's no meaningful thing that that infant could have gotten out of that situation at all.  Steve might have, but the child certain did not, and if there's nothing for the child to gain by this, then there's no justification for exposing it to even a modicum of danger.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 03 January 2004 - 01:21 AM.

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#55 Shalamar

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:20 AM

I am going to weigh in on the side of Mr. Irwin, his wife, how is an animal specialist in her own right - she is an American who has rehabed numerous animals, the last before her marriage being a cougar- She is no novice. As well as Silverwind and Jid.

( I have been a vetrinarian assistant, I have owned and ridden horses all my life ). - so I know a little bit about animals, and how a animal handling professional looks at things. And Mr. Irwin IS a professional, with a team to back him up.

Would you be as 'outraged' if I took a child up on the saddle with me? Its done all the time, and I asure you generally doesn't cause much upset to viewers, even though a horse is just as dangerous in their own way as any crocodile.
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#56 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:28 AM

silverwind, on Jan 3 2004, 06:15 AM, said:

Zoxesyr, on Jan 3 2004, 12:11 AM, said:

Like you are taking a terrible risk for no good reason.
Okay, if you haven't gotten my point yet about the reason Steve takes the risks he does, I give up. :eh:
I have no problem with him taking risks with his own life and limb.  He's done it and turned most of the failures into reasonably valid educational product or good TV.  He is an adult, and knowledgable about those situations.

Even if everyone was perfectly safe, there was an error in thinking that this wouldn't turn into a PR nightmare.

I also retract my statement about the trustees.  I re-read the article, and this isn't a zoo, it is Steve's private park.  He probably doesn't have a board of directors or trustees looking over his shoulder.
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#57 Zoxesyr

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:29 AM

parisindy, on Jan 3 2004, 06:15 AM, said:

ahhh there's to many damn kids in the world anyway
:lol: O.k.  I'm done now.  We should start this quote in a new thread  :lol:
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#58 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:31 AM

Shal if you took a BABY up into a saddle of a horse with you?  Damn straight I'd be outraged.  I've been thrown from a horse, I know how it feels.  That aside I think comparing a horse to a crocodile is like comparing Shadowfax to Shelob.  It's not close to analagous.
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#59 Uncle Sid

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:34 AM

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Would you be as 'outraged' if I took a child up on the saddle with me? Its done all the time, and I asure you generally doesn't cause much upset to viewers, even though a horse is just as dangerous in their own way as any crocodile.

Define child.  A young child of a certain age might be able to get something out of the experience of dealing with a horse.  An infant though?  That's a pretty iffy proposition even if we were talking about a horse, which isn't likely to see the  infant as either a threat OR a bite-sized morsel.  

Yes, people might stick even infants on horses all the time, but I would still say that is something that's undesirable unless there was a good reason to do so.  At the very least, though, the horse might be getting mother and child from one place to another, which is basically the same as taking a car ride.  Exactly how does holding an infant in one arm while feeding a croc with the other do anything other than shock the TV viewers?
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#60 GiGi

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 02:33 AM

I can't believe this thread!!!  In this day and age where parents get run over the coals for child endangerment and accused of child abuse that Croc dude didn't think this was a stupid idea.

My pig has bite me to the point of my having drainage tubes, stitches and doctors talking gangrene and amputation if the infection wouldn't get under control. And it was an accident.

I have had mothers come out to see the pig on his walk and get down out their infant right in his face.  I have nightmares of the situation if the pig smells food on the infant and turns to take a bite. (pigs have bad eyesight, fantastic sense of smell)  I of course immediately turn the pig so his face is away from the kid while explaining what a dangerous thing it is to do that.  If anything went wrong it wouldn't be the idiot parent's fault, it would be mine for having a dangerous animal.

What is it with parents and infants anyway, do they lose all sense when they have a infant in hand?!

My pig is highly intelligent, very domesticated and yet he is an animal in all sense of the word.  I can cuddle with him on the floor, but if he gets spooked instinct takes over and his behavior is very unpredictable.

Now, Croc dude doesn't cuddle his crocs and have them tamed to the point of being a member of the family as I have with my pig.  So in my opinion his crocs are infinately more dangerous than my pig.  Sure he knows how far to go, but with an animal, any animal there is always an unpredictability.  sh*t happens.  And it wouldn't be the crocs fault either, they do what they do because of what they are.

And why didn't the mom just hold the kid close enough for him to see, but not be in danger of being dropped if something went wrong. I wouldn't go as far as to call this child abuse.  But he should not do that again!!!!!!
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