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Is Howard Dean's wife's Jewishness fair game?

Election 2004 Howard Dean 2004

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#1 MuseZack

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 07:49 PM

First things first.  I am not a Howard Dean fan.  I think that while he was a pretty good governor of his little state, he's a bit of a hothead with no foreign policy experience and a worrying tendency to shoot his mouth off before thinking things through.

That said, I'm a little disturbed by some recent op-eds in the conservative press that are making an issue of Dean's wife being Jewish and the fact that their two kids are being raised in the Jewish faith.  Here are a couple:

http://www.dfw.com/m...ion/7612850.htm

Dean's wife is Jewish and his two children are being raised Jewish, which is strange at best, considering that the two faiths take a distinctly different view of Jesus.

And via the Townhall op-ed clearinghouse:

http://www.opinioned...s_20031231.html

Howard Dean’s comments place him squarely in the “Jesus of convenience” camp. His wife and children are Jewish. Cool. But I have to wonder: if Howie’s faith in Jesus Christ is so important to him, why didn’t he marry someone with the same faith? Why didn’t he insist on raising his children in that faith? Say it with me, on three: because what faith Howard Dean has in Jesus isn’t central to his life.


And several months back, the ever-reliable Ann Coulter opined:

http://www.townhall....c20031120.shtml

In addition to having a number of family deaths among them, the Democrats' other big idea – too nuanced for a bumper sticker – is that many of them have Jewish ancestry. There's Joe Lieberman: Always Jewish. Wesley Clark: Found Out His Father Was Jewish in College. John Kerry: Jewish Since He Began Presidential Fund-Raising. Howard Dean: Married to a Jew. Al Sharpton: Circumcised. Even Hillary Clinton claimed to have unearthed some evidence that she was a Jew – along with the long lost evidence that she was a Yankees fan. And that, boys and girls, is how the Jews survived thousands of years of persecution: by being susceptible to pandering.  


So am I being oversensitive here, or is there something creepy going on with this obsessive pointing out of Howard Dean's mixed marriage?  And what exactly is the point here?  That Howard's not man enough to force his wife to convert?  I don't get it.  Given the long history of antisemitism in this country, isn't it a bit, um, weird to be raising this as a campaign issue, especially when there are so many legitimate issues with Dean's experience, tempermant, and political views that can be raised?


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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 07:55 PM

I dislike Howard Dean for a wide variety of reasons. This isn't one of them; I couldn't care less who he married.

However: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't interfaith marriage a no-no, Biblically? Bush gets criticized on a regular basis for being TOO Christian; it seems fair for the other side to come back and say (or imply) that Dean isn't Christian enough.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#3 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 07:56 PM

You're not being oversensitive.  My god I'm having flashes of West Side Story. "Stick to your own kind, one of your own kind."

I was kinda hoping that at least the pundits would "pretend" to be past this kind of nonsense.   :pout:
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#4 GiGi

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:01 PM

All of those quotes creep me out...each and every one of them!
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#5 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:06 PM

Rov this is not a matter of questionning his Christianity but of taking potshots at mixed religion marriages.  It's the same kind of animus behind opposition to a black woman being married to a white guy.
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#6 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:16 PM

I so dislike gutter politics, and this is exactly what it is...gutter trash.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#7 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:20 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 06:06 PM, said:

Rov this is not a matter of questionning his Christianity but of taking potshots at mixed religion marriages.
It's both.

Quote

2 Corinthians 6:14, ‘Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?’

Does Dean choosing to ignore that Biblical teaching make him any less Christian? It's not for me to say. But politicians have their faith questioned all the time, both as being too strong and too weak.

You may not like that Biblical teaching-- I don't either-- but it's waaaaay too late to put the proverbial "faith in politics" genie back in the bottle.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 03 January 2004 - 08:21 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#8 GiGi

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:26 PM

Quote

2 Corinthians 6:14, ‘Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?’

Who are the unbelievers?  Does it assume every Jewish person is an unbeliever, what of Christ, he was Jewish also.  Please explain.  I don't have a King James version here.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#9 rodglas

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:27 PM

Religiously mixed marriages a genrally a bad idea if you are dedicated to your faith.  One then wonder if Mr. Dean is dedicated to his faith if he is married to a Jewish woman and raising his children as Jews.

That being said this has very little to do with his ability to carry out any political office.  This is only an issue betwen him, his church and God, and says very little about moral convictions on political issues.

Rod.
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#10 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:29 PM

GiGi, on Jan 3 2004, 06:26 PM, said:

Who are the unbelievers?  Does it assume every Jewish person is an unbeliever, what of Christ, he was Jewish also.  Please explain.  I don't have a King James version here.
TBH, I'm not sure how they work that out, although I think the unbelievers includes Jews. Beyond that, somebody else is going to explain the fuller context; I just remembered the verse and found it via google. I'm sure somebody out there can explain it more fully...
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:32 PM

GiGi, on Jan 3 2004, 05:26 PM, said:

Quote

2 Corinthians 6:14, ‘Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?’

Who are the unbelievers?  Does it assume every Jewish person is an unbeliever, what of Christ, he was Jewish also.  Please explain.  I don't have a King James version here.
Shhhhhhh, don't mention Christ being a Jew.  Many people don't want to hear it.;)

Honestly I think that the idea that there is anything wrong with mixed religion marriages has about as much place in our society as the idea that people of different ethnicities shouldn't be wed.
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#12 rodglas

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:32 PM

GiGi

Jews would be unbelievers in this context as they do not believe in Christ.  Christians are by definintion followers of Christ Jesus who was a Jew and is the foundation of Christianity.

Rod
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#13 Cardie

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:35 PM

If your goal is to make sure the White House stays in the hands of a committed Christian, then I suppose it is something that might be pointed out. To make sure that the White House stays in the hands of a committed Christian isn't to me a valid reason for voting for anyone for president, but then I'm not a Christian.  Only the Coulter piece crosses over into clear antisemitism, however.

Of course I'm frustrated that the Jewish guy in the race is too conservative for me.  ;)

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#14 Delvo

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:40 PM

This would be a problem if they were saying or even implying that her being Jewish is a problem by itself. But they're not. They're just pointing it out in the context of how he publicly represents himself as a Christian, since many voters to whom religion matters would see an evident conflict between how he's described himself and how he's lived his life.

(Except the Coulter quote; she's talking about Democrats in general claiming Jewish connections as a method of trying to position themselves as the only possible representatives of all minorties... although it doesn't work in this case because he hasn't tried to make a public spectacle of his wife like the way, for example, the Sore-Loserman team kept yapping about one of them being a Jew when he was first picked.)

#15 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:40 PM

I'm just curious here. But why is this kind of "attack", and that's just what it is, a religious attack, even allowed? Does the seperation between church and state prevent it? Or does that apply only after you've gotten into office?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#16 rodglas

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:41 PM

I disagree Lil, and I'll tell you why.  Jews and Christians have a fundementally different view of salvation.  For Jews salavtion is a future event, while Christains believe it has already come.  If you strongly believe in one then the other must be wrong, and as strong belief is a requirement of Christianity it would make a mixed religion marriage a pain filled thing.

Rod.
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#17 GiGi

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:43 PM

rodglas, on Jan 3 2004, 05:32 PM, said:

GiGi

Jews would be unbelievers in this context as they do not believe in Christ.  Christians are by definintion followers of Christ Jesus who was a Jew and is the foundation of Christianity.

Rod
Um, what about "Jews for Jesus?"  Someone can be Jewish and believe in Christ, Muslims believe in Christ.  They just don't believe he is "THE Savior"  Neither do I, people need to save themselves, which in my opinion and interpretation is one of Jesus' teachings.  (I love the man, can't stand some of the things done in his name)

Anyway, we do not know the very personal and private beliefs of Mrs. Dean, nor is it any of our business.  Not unless those beliefs spilll over into the politics of the situation, like you know, the Bush Brothers!

What is that quote about casting out the mote in your eye?  Dang I wish I had a Bible around. (well, one that isn't the interpretation based on the Dead Sea Scrolls or whatever esoteric version we have here.  Cool books, but they don't have Classic Bible quotes in them)
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#18 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:44 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jan 3 2004, 05:40 PM, said:

I'm just curious here. But why is this kind of "attack", and that's just what it is, a religious attack, even allowed? Does the seperation between church and state prevent it? Or does that apply only after you've gotten into office?
oh boy.  LOTS, first of all it's a little old thing called FREE SPEECH.  Second of all, separation of church and state does not preclude a politician from speaking of religion.  That's not what it's about.
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#19 GiGi

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:49 PM

rodglas, on Jan 3 2004, 05:41 PM, said:

I disagree Lil, and I'll tell you why.  Jews and Christians have a fundementally different view of salvation.  For Jews salavtion is a future event, while Christains believe it has already come.  If you strongly believe in one then the other must be wrong, and as strong belief is a requirement of Christianity it would make a mixed religion marriage a pain filled thing.

Rod.
Interesting.  I know of couples who have worked this out.  It still is a matter of interpretation.  My best friend growing up was Jewish, I was raised Protestant.  I had no problems with her faith, I went to the Synagogue with her many times.  The friend I had real problems with was my neighbor who was Catholic!  Both I and my Jewish friend were going to hell according to him.

So, it depends on the people sometimes as much as the combinations of faiths.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#20 rodglas

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:49 PM

Jews can be either and ethnicity or a religion.

Jews for Jesus are ethnic Jews who believe in Jesus.

Muslums do not "believe" in Jesus but Allah.  Jesus in Islam is only a prophet.

Rod.
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