Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Is Howard Dean's wife's Jewishness fair game?

Election 2004 Howard Dean 2004

  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#21 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:49 PM

Quote

GiGi:
All of those quotes creep me out...each and every one of them!

Ditto! :suspect:

Quote

rodglas:
...That being said this has very little to do with his ability to carry out any political office. This is only an issue betwen him, his church and God, and says very little about moral convictions on political issues.

Exactly.
Per aspera ad astra

#22 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:53 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 07:32 PM, said:

GiGi, on Jan 3 2004, 05:26 PM, said:

Does it assume every Jewish person is an unbeliever, what of Christ, he was Jewish also...
Shhhhhhh, don't mention Christ being a Jew.  Many people don't want to hear it.;)
He was of the Jewish race, but still a Christian by faith, since he was a "believer" in himself. All of the earliest Christians were racail Jews who broke away from the Jewish religion. Today, Jewishness is simply a matter of religion and tradition, not race, since the Jewish race has melted away into the others wherever they went. So, by modern defintition of Jewishness, no, Jesus was not a Jew, because he was creating his own new cult rather than following established traditoins... but that's moot anyway since the quote refers only to "believers" in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, and there's nothing even marginally confusing about that. (If you believe, you're a believer, if you don't, like modern Jews, you're not.)

Quote

Honestly I think that the idea that there is anything wrong with mixed religion marriages has about as much place in our society as the idea that people of different ethnicities shouldn't be wed.
But that idea isn't what's in the quotes we're talking about. We're talking about a politician who talks about how important his religion is to him when he's talking to certain selected audiences. And his decision to marry a non-Christian and raise non-Christian children proves that he doesn't really take Christianity very seriously, which is at odds with how he presents himself to those audiences.

#23 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:56 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 08:44 PM, said:

oh boy.  LOTS, first of all it's a little old thing called FREE SPEECH.  Second of all, separation of church and state does not preclude a politician from speaking of religion.  That's not what it's about.
So, going by your answer, it would be OK for the President to say: "All Americans should be Catholic."?

I mean, even the President has the right to FREE SPEECH, afterall.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#24 rodglas

rodglas

    Beneath the Surface; Lies the Future

  • Islander
  • 458 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:59 PM

GiGi

Its not about acceptance, or friendship or respect in the relationship, all of which I'm sure Mr. Dean has in abundance for his wife and children.  

I have no problem with the Jewish Faith, Jesus was Jewish someone who wanted to reform the Jewish faith.  In the end he was responsible for a new faith based on Judaism.  I have no Jewish friends that is my loss I think, and would not be against that kind friendship.  

A marriage is a much deeper relationship and when two people of different faiths marry one must take dominace over the other or it will end badly.  Mr. Dean married a Jew that is his choice, and his resposiblity to deal with the conciquences to his faith.

Rod.
"Requested items: One Mark V ECM unit, 1000 km of fullerene cable, one low yield nuclear warhead. Stated purpose: birthday party for foreign dignitary." --Argosy Special Operations Service requisition form, CY 9512

#25 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:00 PM

Quote

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 08:44 PM, said:


oh boy.  LOTS, first of all it's a little old thing called FREE SPEECH.  Second of all, separation of church and state does not preclude a politician from speaking of religion.  That's not what it's about.
So, going by your answer, it would be OK for the President to say: "All Americans should be Catholic."?

I mean, even the President has the right to FREE SPEECH, afterall.

Well, he could say it. That wouldn't be a popular sentiment, but the President has as much right to express religious views as any other citizen.

If he wrote it into law, that'd be another story...

Edited by Kevin Street, 03 January 2004 - 09:01 PM.

Per aspera ad astra

#26 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:00 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jan 3 2004, 06:56 PM, said:

So, going by your answer, it would be OK for the President to say: "All Americans should be Catholic."?

I mean, even the President has the right to FREE SPEECH, afterall.
There would be no constitutional impediment to him doing so.

Politically, it would be an amazingly bad idea, which is why he doesn't.

<He has, however, urged Americans to consult a higher authority on repeated occasions...>
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#27 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:00 PM

Obviously you're missing the point.  The president can, for example, go to Church.  The president can, for example, state that he believes in Christ.  The president can, for example, state that he does not accept the credos of Judaism.  What separation of church and state is about is preventing religious doctrine from being a matter of political policy.  It's not perfect mind you, but that's the idea.

Lil
Posted Image

#28 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:04 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 09:00 PM, said:

Obviously you're missing the point.  The president can, for example, go to Church.  The president can, for example, state that he believes in Christ.  The president can, for example, state that he does not accept the credos of Judaism.  What separation of church and state is about is preventing religious doctrine from being a matter of political policy.  It's not perfect mind you, but that's the idea.

Lil
Thank you. I was missing the point. I just wasn't sure where seperation of church and state ended.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#29 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:05 PM

rodglas, on Jan 3 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Muslums do not "believe" in Jesus but Allah.  Jesus in Islam is only a prophet.
Not exactly, they believe he is a prophet as they believe Mohummad was a prophet.  The story of Jesus is in the Koran.  It is just that Mohummad was the Last prophet and the one they follow.  

They don't think Mohummad is going to "save them" any more than they think Jesus is going to save them.

My point about Jews for Jesus is that some people can embrace more than one religous viewpoint.  Studying with the Sufis was my favorite group to learn with, they embrace all religions equally and try to find the connecting thread through all of them.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#30 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:00 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jan 3 2004, 08:56 PM, said:

it would be OK for the President to say: "All Americans should be Catholic."?
Only if he didn't want to get re-elected.

There's only been one Catholic President: John F. Kennedy.

Any president would probably get a better response from playing the old nativist yarns about popish plots to undermine the great American salvation of democracy.

They'd lose my vote, but hey, I'm Canadian. So I mostly vote at the gambling table. I hear the odds on Bush are still good....

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#31 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:01 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 3 2004, 07:55 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't interfaith marriage a no-no, Biblically?
Since when is what's written in the Bible relevant to American politics?

Wait, never mind---

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#32 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:05 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 4 2004, 02:00 AM, said:

<He has, however, urged Americans to consult a higher authority on repeated occasions...>
I am trying to figure out how that is a bad thing.

I seem to him asking folks by asking for the higher beings intervention to do so at least once to lease the burden of  grief and fear from the effects of 9/11.  Was that a bad thing?

#33 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,653 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:16 PM

Delvo, on Jan 3 2004, 08:53 PM, said:

He was of the Jewish race, but still a Christian by faith, since he was a "believer" in himself. All of the earliest Christians were racail Jews who broke away from the Jewish religion.
Not exactly, Delvo. Judaism at that time believed that a Messiah would come and redeem Israel. Jesus believed himself to be that Messiah, but in the context of being the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. Thus the mockery of him for believing himself "King of the Jews."  It was only when Paul started converting non-Jews on the basis that the Messiah had come to save everyone, not just the children of Abraham, that ethnic Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah were classified as Jews and those who accepted Christ as their savior, whether of Hebrew descent or not, became known as Christians. At the time of his Crucifixion Jesus would have been astonished to be considered anything but a Jew.

And despite the Diaspora, Jews don't think their identity as a people as well as a faith has just "melted away."

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#34 rodglas

rodglas

    Beneath the Surface; Lies the Future

  • Islander
  • 458 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:16 PM

GiGi, on Jan 3 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

rodglas, on Jan 3 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Muslums do not "believe" in Jesus but Allah.  Jesus in Islam is only a prophet.
Not exactly, they believe he is a prophet as they believe Mohummad was a prophet.  The story of Jesus is in the Koran.  It is just that Mohummad was the Last prophet and the one they follow.  

They don't think Mohummad is going to "save them" any more than they think Jesus is going to save them.

My point about Jews for Jesus is that some people can embrace more than one religous viewpoint.  Studying with the Sufis was my favorite group to learn with, they embrace all religions equally and try to find the connecting thread through all of them.
I think we are useing two differnet definitions of belief mine being more narrowly defined.

Muslims do not belive in Mohummad they belive in his teachings about Allah He was divinly inspired, perhaps even touched by Allah in Muslim belief.  He was THE Prophet not the divine himself.

Christains belive in Jesus, they belive he is God, that he was always God.  And we do belive that Jesus is going to save us.

Rod.
"Requested items: One Mark V ECM unit, 1000 km of fullerene cable, one low yield nuclear warhead. Stated purpose: birthday party for foreign dignitary." --Argosy Special Operations Service requisition form, CY 9512

#35 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:18 PM

G1223, on Jan 3 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 4 2004, 02:00 AM, said:

<He has, however, urged Americans to consult a higher authority on repeated occasions...>
I am trying to figure out how that is a bad thing.
Never said it was. I just said that it happened.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#36 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:20 PM

Thank you Cardie!   :D
Posted Image

#37 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:58 PM

rodglas, on Jan 3 2004, 07:16 PM, said:

I think we are useing two differnet definitions of belief mine being more narrowly defined.

Muslims do not belive in Mohummad they belive in his teachings about Allah He was divinly inspired, perhaps even touched by Allah in Muslim belief.  He was THE Prophet not the divine himself.

Christains belive in Jesus, they belive he is God, that he was always God.  And we do belive that Jesus is going to save us.

Rod.
Agreed, I am using words very loosely. My bad. (ack, been around the kids too much :D)

What the Muslims believe, which I know from living with them and practicing Islam with them is that "There is no God but God and Mohummad is his prophet"  (whoops almost typed "profit," Freudian slip :blush: ) Muslims have a personal connection to their [idea of] God.  Jesus is a revered prophet as well.  His teachings are also studied and held in high regard.

I must admit that while I believe the Christ spirit is God, I don't believe Jesus as an incarnate being was "God" proper.  He was an avatar, meaning he had much more divine abilities than most humans, but from what I get from looking at the words that are supposed to be spoken by him that these are things all humans could do.   Guess I am more aligned with Muslims than I thought.  Actually as I mentioned before, if anything I am Sufi, and Sufism started in the Islam faith so we studied it quite a bit.

So, I will stop now because I don't want this to go too off track in this thread.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#38 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 04 January 2004 - 12:10 PM

Quote

LOTS: Does the seperation between church and state prevent it?

Well if you were living in the Soviet Union perhaps. ;)  First of all separation of Church and State isn’t in the Constitution.  What we have is the following:

Quote

1st Amendment Excerpt: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

So Congress and over time this has been expanded to other levels of governments can’t make laws that infringe on religious rights.  Second of all what Lil said on this topic about free speech.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 04 January 2004 - 12:10 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#39 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 05 January 2004 - 06:33 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 3 2004, 05:56 PM, said:

You're not being oversensitive.  My god I'm having flashes of West Side Story. "Stick to your own kind, one of your own kind."

I was kinda hoping that at least the pundits would "pretend" to be past this kind of nonsense.   :pout:
I'm with Lil. As long as anyone's faith isn't used to dictate government actions, I don't see that it's anybody's business.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Election 2004, Howard Dean, 2004

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users