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Election 2004 Howard Dean 2004

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:01 AM

This is just sad.

http://www.nytimes.c...print&position=

Quote

With a wary eye on Gen. Wesley K. Clark's rise in national and New Hampshire polls, Howard Dean's campaign has begun to limit his availability to the press

Yes, hiding from the media is a brilliant way to conduct a campaign. Why don't you leave Iowa and New Hampshire entirely? I hear France is lovely this time of year.

Quote

and the candidate himself is watching his words after several recent statements unleashed a storm of criticism from opponents.

We're two weeks away from the primary, and the frontrunner is just now 'watching his words'?

Quote

Dr. Dean, who has spent two years campaigning as the candidate willing to say what he thinks, initially told reporters that he would be "happy" to discuss his tax policy. Then, as aides glared at him, he immediately said that a senior adviser had "veto power" over what he would say.

"I'm not allowed to say I'm happy to do anything anymore," he added.

:Oo:. Look, all national politicians have handlers. But is it too much to ask that Dean make an EFFORT to pretend he's independent?

Dean seems to pathologically incapable of being politically savvy. I'd hate to see this guy negotiating with congress, or dealing with foreign leaders. I'm shuddering just thinking about it.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 Delvo

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:17 AM

Why restrain himself now? Spewing forth a bunch of maniacal brain-blistering antisensical lies is precisely how he got the large lead he's got now. It's what works in the mesmerized reality-detached zombie cult that the Democrat party has become. And if you change the plan that already works, you're going to end up doing something that doesn't work.

#3 Bad Wolf

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:27 AM

Quote

We're two weeks away from the primary, and the frontrunner is just now 'watching his words'?

Hey it took the Niners until the fourth quarter of the last game of the year to realize they had the wrong holder for their field goal tries.  Slow on the uptake ain't exactly an uncommon thing...;)
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#4 MuseZack

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:35 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 8 2004, 05:01 AM, said:

:Oo:. Look, all national politicians have handlers. But is it too much to ask that Dean make an EFFORT to pretend he's independent?

Dean seems to pathologically incapable of being politically savvy. I'd hate to see this guy negotiating with congress, or dealing with foreign leaders. I'm shuddering just thinking about it.
As opposed to the brilliant statesman and negotiator we have now?

[Rice] suggested, carefully, that the White House begin repairing the rupture with the allies over Iraq by reaching out to Germany, whose chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, had infuriated the president by campaigning for re-election on an antiwar platform. Mr. Bush, simply put, did not trust him.  

"I can't do it with Schröder," Mr. Bush told Ms. Rice, according to a senior administration official who witnessed the exchange. Ms. Rice, who had not directly suggested that Mr. Bush meet with Mr. Schröder, rushed to reassure. "No, no, no, we won't make you do it with Schröder," she said. But Mr. Bush seemed to know what Ms. Rice had in mind. "Wait a minute, you'll get me back with Schröder, I know what you're trying to do," the president said, the official recounted.  


http://nytimes.com/2...pagewanted=1

And please-- Bush got to where he is by carefully insultating himself from unscripted encounters with the press.  See "Journeys With George," then count how many full press conferences he's had since inaguration  To bash Dean for taking a page from that playbook (and getting cautious is what any frontrunner who doesn't want to blow a lead does)wothout noting that is completely hypocritical.
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Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#5 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:42 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 8 2004, 12:01 AM, said:

Dean seems to pathologically incapable of being politically savvy. I'd hate to see this guy negotiating with congress, or dealing with foreign leaders. I'm shuddering just thinking about it.
Geee. Thanks. Now I'm going to have Nightmares just thinking about Dean as President trying to deal with Foreign governments.  ;)  :p
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#6 Rov Judicata

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:45 AM

LOL Lil.

Zack-- Once we get past the primary season, criticism of Bush will ramp up. Until then, focusing on the Democrats is more interesting because there's still some question about who the nominee will be, and Bush hasn't even begun to campaign.

And I did say that all national politicians have handlers. The way it's shaping up, neither candidate is going to be particularly good. But Dean is already making some significiant screw-ups, and there's a good chance he's going to be the nominee.

Dean also did one thing Bush never did that I can recall: Flip-flopping in a space of about 10 seconds. That's not going to play well with anybody. The only thing that could make it worse is if Dean issues a retraction, saying that nobody, in fact, has veto power over his media engagements. Which I expect him to do within 24 hours.

One other thing: What do you mean by "full press conference"? Do you mean a press conference with a speech and a question and answer period, or is there some other qualifier that distinguishes a full press conference from a plain press conference?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#7 Rov Judicata

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:46 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jan 7 2004, 10:42 PM, said:

Geee. Thanks. Now I'm going to have Nightmares just thinking about Dean as President trying to deal with Foreign governments.  ;)  :p
APOTS :angel:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#8 G1223

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 01:06 AM

MuseZack, on Jan 8 2004, 05:35 AM, said:

As opposed to the brilliant statesman and negotiator we have now?
You mean the guy who has Libya stick it's hands up and saying "please take these horrible waepons away from me" The guy who has the man,who buried alive thousands if not tens oh thousands of his country men, named Saddam.  

While the Nine dwarves are all 30 days and pull out folks so the UN can step in. You do remember the UN the guys who do not want our help but hire guys who help blow up their buildings, Also the guys who have countries like Sadan (Which pract... No operates on Slavery) China (Who has a bundle of human rights violations that makes our acts seem dammedably clean) on the human rights comitee.  

That is like making Sammy the Bull  the new guy in charge of DEA and having no oversight on him.

So excuse me I'll take the stumbler and fool over the great and oh so wise choice called Dean or Clarke  both of whom make me think of Chamberlin.

#9 MuseZack

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 01:26 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 8 2004, 05:45 AM, said:

One other thing: What do you mean by "full press conference"? Do you mean a press conference with a speech and a question and answer period, or is there some other qualifier that distinguishes a full press conference from a plain press conference?
By full press conference, I mean an actual press conference instead of the half-dozen questions at the end of some appearance with a foreign dignitary where Bush usually interacts with the press.  And Rov, I don't mean to beat up on you, I just think you're buying too heavily into the way things are getting spun by the media.  

And while Dean's made his share of stupid statements, he's also had perfectly legitimate things he's said turned into pseudo-scandals, like his statement of the obvious that Osama bin Laden should get a fair trial if he's captured.  How is that any different from Bush's remarks about fellow public enemy Saddam Hussein at this Dec. 15 press conference?

QUESTION: Mr. President, you said earlier this morning that in a trial that all of Saddam's atrocities need to be brought out. He was in power more than 30 years. It probably would make for a long rap sheet.

Bush: You're not supposed to pre-judge.

QUESTION: Yes. I'm just counting the years.

Bush: OK, good.

QUESTION: Do you believe that the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 should be included, as well as his assassination attempt against former President Bush?

Bush: That'll all be decided by the lawyers. And I will instruct this government to make sure the system includes the Iraqi citizens and make sure the process withstands international scrutiny.

But we'll let the lawyers handle all that. And, as you know, I'm not a lawyer. And I delegate. And I'm going to delegate this to the legal community which will be reviewing all of this matter.

"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#10 StarDust

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 09:23 AM

There's a big difference here.

Dean says really stupid things with really stupid ideas behind them.  And I've had the definite impression that the press likes Dean, not that they're spinning him to look bad.  Every 'journalist' I've seen seems to go out of their way to make excuses for him.  Think they're democrats? :)

Bush definitely says stupid things at times, but it has more to do with is command of the language, not the ideas.  People like to make fun of the words he chooses.  That's quite different than the ideas.

And, so what if Bush doesn't like the German Chancellor?  I don't think most of us are too fond of him. But what he may say in a conversation with Rice is quite different than what he says to the Chancellor.  And how would the Times even know what was said? Most of the time I think they make that stuff up, all the 'inside, private' conversations. Or they get it from a 'source' which can mean anything, including the 'source' having it's own agenda.

#11 Drew

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 09:58 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jan 7 2004, 11:01 PM, said:

Yes, hiding from the media is a brilliant way to conduct a campaign. Why don't you leave Iowa and New Hampshire entirely?
I understood that at least two of the Dem candidates were skipping N.H. and Iowa. Can't remember who, though. Gephardt, I think, was one of them.

And I'll say it again: I hope Dean does get the candidacy. Bush will be a shoe-in.

(Hold on, Drew, . . . you said the same sort of thing in 1992 . . .  :Oo:  )
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#12 StarDust

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:00 PM

Well, I'd hardly put Dean and Gore at the same level.

It kind of confused me why Gore would back Dean, but this is what I suspect.  Gore didn't run this time because he's fairly sure he can't win. I believe he intends to run in 2008. At that time he certainly wouldn't want a Democrat that could actually beat him.  Dean will make a poor showing in the Presidential elections, any of the others would probably do better.  They don't get the party nomination, Dean flops nationally, and Gore is all set in 4 years.  

:)

Of course, on one level, Dean is perfect for the "tip toe through the tulips" party.

#13 the 'Hawk

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:05 PM

If Dean doesn't play it safe, he's dead in the primaries.

If anything, he's doing this exactly right. Now his opponents will all jump up and say what he's done wrong, and say what they'd do right. Which is good for Dean, since then his aides can collect a circumstantial case and defeat his opposition in detail with his already comprehensive lead.

That's all he really has to do to garner an anti-Bush vote, too. The primaries will be good practice. It's the old "win-by-not-losing" maneuver.

All Dean has to do now is not lose.

He's already won the Democratic nomination as it stands--- the vote is too divided between supporters of others and those who don't like him to match up. He's got the lead, and nothing short of strategic voting in the primaries is going to turn that around.

:cool:
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#14 G1223

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:19 PM

Well of course this could also be the attempt to take the nomination at the convention  theory.

  I am thinking that maybe Hilary is working the back rooms  and already has the Hollywood crowd in her pocket.  She has been seen in Iowa and places shaking hands and talking to people odd for a non canidate don't you think.

The PR machine could be primed waiting for the party to fragment further so the "Great Uniter" can step forward and save the day. by appearing a moderate and having the liberal media's backing she could make a run.

#15 StarDust

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 12:24 PM

the'Hawk, on Jan 8 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

He's already won the Democratic nomination as it stands--- the vote is too divided between supporters of others and those who don't like him to match up. He's got the lead, and nothing short of strategic voting in the primaries is going to turn that around.
Actually, recent reports have indicated Dean is in a dead heat with Clark.  How long that will last depends, but I think those that supported Dean are now getting more exposure to the others and things might change.

After all, for months the journalists have almost exclusively talked about Dean. And a lot of people just go with the guy who looks like the front runner until someone else manages to get their attention, or the front runner looks so eternally stupid even to the ones not paying attention.

#16 Rov Judicata

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:30 PM

MuseZack, on Jan 7 2004, 11:26 PM, said:

By full press conference, I mean an actual press conference instead of the half-dozen questions at the end of some appearance with a foreign dignitary where Bush usually interacts with the press.
I don't see how that's inherently inferior; whether it's after an appearence with a foreign dignitary or not, it's still an unscripted question.

Quote

And Rov, I don't mean to beat up on you, I just think you're buying too heavily into the way things are getting spun by the media. 

I can take it. ;). And while the media often gets it wrong, they sometimes get it right.

Quote

And while Dean's made his share of stupid statements, he's also had perfectly legitimate things he's said turned into pseudo-scandals, like his statement of the obvious that Osama bin Laden should get a fair trial if he's captured.  How is that any different from Bush's remarks about fellow public enemy Saddam Hussein at this Dec. 15 press conference?

Maybe; maybe not. I'd point out that Saddam's crimes were chiefly against Iraqis, and that makes the situation fundamentally different than OBL. You're right though, that his comments would have gotten more attention if he had said them closer to the general. That still doesn't address the issue that Dean is hardly being politically savvy. "Bush makes mistakes too" isn't going to bail Dean out.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#17 Drew

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:33 PM

StarDust, on Jan 8 2004, 11:00 AM, said:

Well, I'd hardly put Dean and Gore at the same level.
1992, not 2000. Different Bush. Dean is just this year's Clinton.  :cool:

Quote

It kind of confused me why Gore would back Dean, but this is what I suspect. Gore didn't run this time because he's fairly sure he can't win. I believe he intends to run in 2008. At that time he certainly wouldn't want a Democrat that could actually beat him. Dean will make a poor showing in the Presidential elections, any of the others would probably do better. They don't get the party nomination, Dean flops nationally, and Gore is all set in 4 years.

Al and Hillary both. And I've heard that theory espoused by seasoned political analysis, too; that the Clinton wing of the party would actually like to lose in 2004 so they can clean up in 2008.

Edited by Drew, 08 January 2004 - 02:37 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#18 MuseZack

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:41 PM

StarDust, on Jan 8 2004, 05:24 PM, said:

the'Hawk, on Jan 8 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

He's already won the Democratic nomination as it stands--- the vote is too divided between supporters of others and those who don't like him to match up. He's got the lead, and nothing short of strategic voting in the primaries is going to turn that around.
Actually, recent reports have indicated Dean is in a dead heat with Clark.  How long that will last depends, but I think those that supported Dean are now getting more exposure to the others and things might change.

After all, for months the journalists have almost exclusively talked about Dean. And a lot of people just go with the guy who looks like the front runner until someone else manages to get their attention, or the front runner looks so eternally stupid even to the ones not paying attention.
If I had to handicap the primary, I'd say it's down to Dean vs. Clark, with Dean at a 60 percent chance of winning and Clark at 30 percent.  The other 10 is for Kerry or Gep or Edwards to do a come from behind miracle if the two main candidates flame out.  Lieberman is hated by too much of the Democratic base to ever win and the others are just nonstarters.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#19 Drew

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:48 PM

I love open primaries.  :love:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#20 Rhea

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 03:31 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan 7 2004, 10:27 PM, said:

Quote

We're two weeks away from the primary, and the frontrunner is just now 'watching his words'?

Hey it took the Niners until the fourth quarter of the last game of the year to realize they had the wrong holder for their field goal tries.  Slow on the uptake ain't exactly an uncommon thing...;)
At our house there have been groans all season every time said placeholder took position, along with cries of "why the HELL haven't they fired him?"  :p  :p
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