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First headscarves, now beards!?

France Headscarves State schools Muslims

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#1 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 11:57 AM

The BBC, again.

Quote

A proposed ban on religious symbols in French state schools could include a ban on beards, according to the French education minister.
Luc Ferry said the law, which will be debated in parliament next month, could ban headscarves, bandannas and beards if they are considered a sign of faith.

But he said Sikhs might be able to wear head coverings if they were discreet.

The proposals, backed by President Jacques Chirac, follow an official report into state secularism.

Mr Ferry, in a National Assembly legal committee hearing about the draft law, said the definition of a religious symbol in the proposed law was broad so that pupils could not bypass the law simply by deviating from a list of proscribed items.

Some Muslim girls wear bandannas to cover their hair as an alternative to the traditional headscarf, feeling it is easier to blend in to the crowd.

Asked about beards, as worn by many Muslims, Mr Ferry said: "As soon as it becomes a religious sign and the code is apparent, it would fall under this law."

Edited by the 'Hawk, 21 January 2004 - 11:58 AM.


#2 Godeskian

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:02 PM

uhm, just how many high school kids have full Sikh beards anyway?

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#3 QueenTiye

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:15 PM

the'Hawk, on Jan 21 2004, 11:57 AM, said:

The BBC, again.

Quote


Some Muslim girls wear bandannas to cover their hair as an alternative to the traditional headscarf, feeling it is easier to blend in to the crowd. 
This is rather important.  I don't think it is right AT ALL to ban bandannas in this situation - here are young girls TRYING to fit in AND obey the dictates of their faith - and THAT'S illegal?

Unbelievable.

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#4 usmarox

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:18 PM

Godeskian, on Jan 21 2004, 05:02 PM, said:

uhm, just how many high school kids have full Sikh beards anyway?
Gode, move to Birmingham.  You might be surprised...
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#5 usmarox

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:19 PM

Damned double-post voodoo.

Edited by usmarox, 21 January 2004 - 12:19 PM.

Miscellaneous ramblings and utter negativity - my LJ

You are not free, whose liberty is won by other, more righteous souls.  You are merely protected.  You suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return.  Now, the time has come for you to pay for that freedom, and you will pay in the currency of honest toil and human blood."

Inquisitor Czevak, Address to the Council of Ryanti.  

And no less true for being fictional.


Two ears, one mouth.  Use them in that ratio.

#6 sierraleone

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:30 PM

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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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#7 Rhys

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 01:24 PM

How long until they ban clothing altogether?

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#8 Drew

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 01:27 PM

* * * ALERT! Godwinizing! ALERT! * * *


When France looks into its future, it sees a Muslim-dominated nation. France's solution may be seen as the flip-side of Hitler's. Rather than force them all to wear an identifying symbol, it requires them to lose their identity. It remains to be seen what France's "final solution" may be.

But it probably won't come to that. The Mullahs will be elected to run France before long.  :cool:
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#9 G1223

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 01:40 PM

Drew without the humor. That could be exactly what the French fear. They are not a melting pot. Remember that untill recently aftwer a few years in America if you came here from anyplace else and did not create trouble you were generally either left alone or thought of as an American. In France they will always be where ever they are from.

France which is a Catholic nation has for years enjoyed the willing low income labor provided by the Africans who are prodomitly Islamic. There numbers are growing to what the French Government and maybe the French People feel is dangerously high.

France is looking at what to do. becasue sooner or later that islamic community is going to want equal access to the government. When that happens it will be mess. A mess that will cause fighting in the streets ( France has had these tyope of problems before) and people will get killed.

Whichj while i dislike the French Goevernment I know will hurt more or less bystanding French citizens.

#10 Drew

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 01:50 PM

G1223, on Jan 21 2004, 12:40 PM, said:

France which is a Catholic nation . . .
:lol:

Quote

. . . has for years enjoyed the willing low income labor provided by the Africans who are prodomitly Islamic. There numbers are growing to what the French Government and maybe the French People feel is dangerously high.

France is looking at what to do. becasue sooner or later that islamic community is going to want equal access to the government.

I seem to recall having read something recently that French officials already regularly consult Arab leaders on national policy issues. I must try to look it up.
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#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:25 PM

Rhys, on Jan 21 2004, 10:24 AM, said:

How long until they ban clothing altogether?

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#12 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:28 PM

Vive le France nude!

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#13 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:33 PM

No no no 'Hawk.

Say it right:  Vive La France au Naturale.

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#14 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:35 PM

^ You know, the funny thing is, being a good student of twentieth century history, I tried to piece together LotR based on how it'd work if applied to, say, World War II.

It may please the fangirl contingent here to note that France and Gondor seemed remarkably similar to me for some reason.

To which I say.... Vive le Gondor au naturel!

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#15 Taryn Wander'r

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:39 PM

But he said Sikhs might be able to wear head coverings if they were discreet.

What? Why are Sikhs special? And how is a Muslim girl wearing a bandanna *not* trying to be discreet?

Not one to mince words, I think these new laws are the stupidest things ever invented.  :whatsthat:

Edited by Taryn Wander'r, 21 January 2004 - 02:41 PM.


#16 Kevin Street

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:14 PM

G1223, on Jan 21 2004, 11:40 AM, said:

Drew without the humor. That could be exactly what the French fear. They are not a melting pot. Remember that untill recently aftwer a few years in America if you came here from anyplace else and did not create trouble you were generally either left alone or thought of as an American. In France they will always be where ever they are from.

France which is a Catholic nation has for years enjoyed the willing low income labor provided by the Africans who are prodomitly Islamic. There numbers are growing to what the French Government and maybe the French People feel is dangerously high.

France is looking at what to do. becasue sooner or later that islamic community is going to want equal access to the government. When that happens it will be mess. A mess that will cause fighting in the streets ( France has had these tyope of problems before) and people will get killed.

Whichj while i dislike the French Goevernment I know will hurt more or less bystanding French citizens.
I don't know if it will come to violence (hopefully not) but you're right about the demographic shift. France is a little ahead of other European countries on this issue, but many of them (including England) may have to face similar questions in the years ahead.

Is that racist? Yes, probably. The French are trying to make this into a cultural issue, but eventually they will have to confront the changes in their own national identity that come from having a large and growing population of immigrants that have their own culture and beliefs. At some point in the future they will have to give up on the idea of France as a Gallic nation and culture and become something more akin to the uncontrolled "melting pot" cultures of the new world - or they will have to make more and more fundamentally racist laws to keep things the way they are now.

I don't envy them, as they have some very difficult decisions to make.
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#17 Drew

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:14 PM

Here's a fascinating article on the French situation.

I'd quote an excerpt but I wouldn't know where to begin.  :blink:

EDIT: oh, here's the bit that stood out to me before, but one must really understand it in context:

Quote

French politicians were apt to brag during the Iraq war of how clearly their voice was heard in the Arab world. France indeed has sway there, but at the price that it must listen attentively to the Arab world's wishes. The mufti of Egypt has darkly warned Chirac that the anti-veil law would "destroy the social peace of French society." The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has called it "an interference in the realm of Muslims' personal and religious liberty." And Hezbollah wrote that angry letter to Chirac. Interior Minister Sarkozy was thus heartened when Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi, the hugely influential imam of al-Azhar theological institute in Egypt, told him that France had the right to ban the veil. While Sarkozy's visit was presented as a drop-in after a vacation, it was obviously of high diplomatic import.

But alongside any cheer that Sarkozy may feel at this triumph of diplomacy, it must be sobering to know that France needs a nihil obstat from Muslim clerics abroad before it can pass a piece of domestic legislation. More sobering still is an increasing tendency among Muslim theologians to count France as part of Dar al-Islam ("the House of Islam"). When Tantawi made similar accommodations to Sarkozy's predecessor, Jean-Pierre Chevènement, in the late 1990s, other clerics at al-Azhar repudiated them under pressure from French Muslim groups.

There are no easy solutions.

Edited by Drew, 21 January 2004 - 03:21 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#18 StarDust

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:30 PM

I don't think the situation in England and France are similar at all.

England has been very good at assimilating people coming into the country, especially people from countries part of it's commonwealth (that's a lot of countries). People from India, for example.  The become English, which is the way it should be and what G1223 was aluding to about the US.  If you move to a country, you should expect, and be expected, to become a part of the country. If you're so hung up on where you came from you should have stayed there. And if they people in the new country don't let you in socially, you won't be able to become fully part of the new country either.

Anyways, France is still very seperatist.  People may be French citizens, but they are not French, they are considered outsiders, and therefore excluded and not assimilated into the society. Eventually, when there are enough of them, they create a problem for the existing culture, potentially overwhelming it.  If they are treated as outsiders, they will be outsiders, keeping their old traditions and ways, and not being particularily friendly to the 'ruling' class.  And don't forget how protective the French have always been concerning their culture. They have all kinds of rules about movies, food, etc to try and persist what is considered French.  But while they were so worried about being overwhelmed by American culture they missed what was happening in their very midsts. They liked the idea of cheap labor without considering the consequence, something Americans should be very carefull about these days. And you can't entirely blame them, no one wants their culture to be over run by someone else's culture.

This is also another reason why countries try to limit how many people immigrate at once, not only does the physical infrastructure have limits to how fast it can absorb new people, but so does the cultural infrastructure.

#19 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:36 PM

StarDust, on Jan 21 2004, 03:30 PM, said:

Anyways, France is still very seperatist.
I think that's Quebec that's separatist, not France. ;) Unless you mean something else by the term.

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#20 Atavus

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:36 PM

I can understand considering banning religious items if a teacher is wearing them, as is being considered in Germany and is already the case in Turkey, but why go to all the trouble of infringing on free speech by telling students what they can wear? Next it'll be ruled that French school uniforms should consist of the national colours.
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