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First headscarves, now beards!?

France Headscarves State schools Muslims

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#41 Munrock

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 05:00 AM

Taryn and QueenTiye, the bandanas aren't banned.

The problem with telling a faith beard from a "can't be bothered to shave" beard is a good point, and what the French should do is all wear turbans and headscarves in protest.

Can an non-muslim wear a headscarve where a muslim can't?
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#42 the 'Hawk

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 12:14 PM

^ Actually, when you think about it....

Don't liberty caps and turbans have a lot in common?

I think it's time for another Revolution in France. No guillotines this time, though.

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#43 G1223

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:02 PM

Basically my feeling is that this is the first steps towards allowing the radical elemetns of the french caucasian population to give vent towards these people who compeat for their jobs.  No one is going to say they support such an action but this could allow those elements a direction to go.

In other words The next Revalution will take place Hawk th people being beheaded are arabic in nature.

Which is sad but ultimatly true.

#44 Enmar

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 04:33 PM

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G:France is looking at what to do. becasue sooner or later that islamic community is going to want equal access to the government. When that happens it will be mess. A mess that will cause fighting in the streets ( France has had these tyope of problems before) and people will get killed.

The Islamic community has the right to vote and take an equal part in the governing, and that should not be a mess. They are far away from being a political power that can change fundamental principals of the republic and there’s no assimilation like taking part in leadership. People don't have to be killed and if they do the blood will be on the panic preaching extremists on both sides.

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QT:This is rather important. I don't think it is right AT ALL to ban bandannas in this situation - here are young girls TRYING to fit in AND obey the dictates of their faith - and THAT'S illegal?

But you're assuming their good will. We can also say that they wear black bandanas and mock the law. I'm not sure which is right, but I'd like to remind you that many of them admit they wear whatever head cloth because of social pressure and not out of belief. For these girls, the law is protection.This is far from being black and white situation.
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#45 prolog

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 04:36 PM

I fully agree with Enmar.  And think what you want about France, but they are at least saying that every religion's affected by this (no large crosses, no headscarves, and so forth).

#46 Shoshana

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 05:30 PM

Not only does France have the largest Muslim population in Europe - it also has the largest Jewish population too. And these rulings are affecting them too - Orthodox men wear head coverings and beards (the more religious ones) and married women cover their hair fully - usually with a wig rather than a scarf.

I figure what will happen is that the more religious children will go to private school. They already do that in alot of places. The workplace os more difficult tho.

I wonder if they will rule against the practice of girls and women covering their arms and legs? Because that's also a common theme in both religions.

Honestly, I think the only people not much affected are the Christians ... they can't wear 'large crosses' (I'm thinkin' rapper size) but can still wear the normal size ones.

And a discreet Sikh turban? Turbans, by their very nature are not very discreet!

'shana

#47 the 'Hawk

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 06:25 PM

G1223, on Jan 23 2004, 01:02 PM, said:

this is the first steps towards allowing the radical elemetns of the french caucasian population to give vent towards these people who compeat for their jobs.  No one is going to say they support such an action but this could allow those elements a direction to go.
And you know what? They open the door to letting the extremist Muslims in the country allow their elements a direction to go.

I have to point out what Enmar mentioned-- there are those Muslims who wear the kit they do as both a perceived protection AND a religious right. You take away their perceived protection, and what's the next thing that happens? Someone else steps up to make them feel safe.

And so it begins. Escalation after escalation, the need to protect one group against THEM--- whoever they are! ---because of who we are. That same ethnic-minded thinking we saw taken to its worst end in the former Yugoslavia. That same destructive and divisive racially-motivated nonsense that has no place in a "civilized" nation such as France.

It alarms me that in the very country that prides itself as being the nursery of the liberal democratic tradition, we see such atavistic, oppressive means being introduced just to suit the "native" French. If the French government were truly interested in listening to the people, these stupid measures never would've been introduced in the first bloody place-- they would've never had public support. Instead, they seem to be getting forced through --and forced down the throats of a sizeable minority-- just to suit someone else's interest.

That was the reason we invaded France for back in '44. Because people were being forced in religious matters and being pushed around by an oppressive government. Because those quiet, tolerant measures were being eradicated, one by one. And I know I'm threading the line damn close to Godwin's Law here, but you'd better believe that I perceive this as a religiously- and racially-motivated attack upon the freedoms of people who are French citizens regardless of their ethnicity or faith.

You take away the rights to the quiet ways and you leave the noisy ways nowhere else to go. Maybe it offends French sensibilities to see their pure-laine culture darkened with Muslim headscarves, but you know what? They should've fixed that twenty years ago through immigration laws if they had such a problem. It's not enough to close the fence after the horse has bolted. And now that France and Europe have an established Muslim population, it needs to stop viewing them as a "problem" and put the Crusades-style thinking in its bloody, barbaric past.

:cool:

Edited by the 'Hawk, 23 January 2004 - 06:28 PM.

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#48 prolog

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 09:08 PM

Shoshana, on Jan 23 2004, 10:30 PM, said:

And a discreet Sikh turban? Turbans, by their very nature are not very discreet!

'shana
They exist.  They're just not the massive turbans we're accustomed to seeing.

#49 Bad Wolf

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 09:16 PM

the'Hawk, on Jan 23 2004, 03:25 PM, said:

And so it begins. Escalation after escalation, the need to protect one group against THEM--- whoever they are! ---because of who we are. That same ethnic-minded thinking we saw taken to its worst end in the former Yugoslavia. That same destructive and divisive racially-motivated nonsense that has no place in a "civilized" nation such as France.
Once again you've nailed it beautifully.
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#50 Uncle Sid

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 09:20 PM

France has a great culture in many ways, but I've never, ever, been impressed by it's politics.  The Revolution was a bloody mess, which incidentially failed miserably except to produce the impetus for even more pointless revolutions later on.  In the end, all it did was produce a lot of dead people and Napoleon.  Now, I'm not blaming the French people for this, since the Bourbon monarchy was a really corrupt piece of work that needed to go, but the Revolution was just as bad in some ways.  

As I've said elsewhere, in their zeal to secularize, they also managed to fail to lose the rampant anti-Semitism that marked France for centuries.  Now with the large Arab populations, I fear that this is now going to be a fixed aspect of the French nation.  I don't like this measure that they are proposing one little bit, but then I've always disliked France's take on Seperation of Church and State and I'm sincerely glad we have a better framework here.
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#51 Rhea

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:47 PM

Uncle Sid, on Jan 23 2004, 07:20 PM, said:

France has a great culture in many ways, but I've never, ever, been impressed by it's politics.  The Revolution was a bloody mess, which incidentially failed miserably except to produce the impetus for even more pointless revolutions later on.  In the end, all it did was produce a lot of dead people and Napoleon.  Now, I'm not blaming the French people for this, since the Bourbon monarchy was a really corrupt piece of work that needed to go, but the Revolution was just as bad in some ways. 

As I've said elsewhere, in their zeal to secularize, they also managed to fail to lose the rampant anti-Semitism that marked France for centuries.  Now with the large Arab populations, I fear that this is now going to be a fixed aspect of the French nation.  I don't like this measure that they are proposing one little bit, but then I've always disliked France's take on Seperation of Church and State and I'm sincerely glad we have a better framework here.
Me too.

And the folks who replaced the Bourbons were every bit as bad- just evil south by southwest instead of north by northeast.  :wacko:
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#52 the 'Hawk

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 03:27 PM

Update.

Quote

The French cabinet has approved a law banning Islamic headscarves and other religious symbols in state schools.
The move comes before a parliamentary debate starting on Tuesday, which is expected to end in the law's approval.

The bill follows an official report on state secularism which was backed by President Jacques Chirac.

Large crucifixes, Jewish skullcaps and other signs of faith - probably including Sikh turbans - will also be banned if the proposals become law.

Quote

Mr Chirac told the closed cabinet meeting that France needed to act to head off danger to the nation's secular foundations.


#53 the 'Hawk

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 11:40 AM

The topic I refuse to let rest. From the BBC.

Quote

French MPs have voted by a massive majority to ban the Islamic headscarf and all other overt religious symbols from state schools. The bill was passed by 494 votes to 36. It now goes to the upper house, the Senate, for approval.

The wearing of Jewish skullcaps, large Christian crosses and probably Sikh turbans would also be banned. About 70% of French people back the controversial law - and even 40% of Muslim women, according to some polls.

Most French MPs backed the bill on the grounds that it protected the secularity of the French state, by keeping religion out of the classroom. But some MPs, backed by Muslim leaders and rights groups, warned it could hit the integration of France's Muslims and could be seen as intolerant.

Already, the prospect of the new law has squandered much of the goodwill President Jacques Chirac built up in Muslim countries when he opposed the war in Iraq, says the BBC's Caroline Wyatt in Paris.

Saudi Arabia's top cleric has accused the proposed French law of violating the human rights it claims to be defending.

The Indian government has reportedly told France to handle the ban with "sensitivity" and the issue may well be raised during this week's visit by French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin.

India is home to the Sikh faith, whose male followers are required to keep their long hair wrapped in a turban. There have been protests against the law in India and amongst France's 7,000 strong Sikh community.

The International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights has also warned the French government against the ban, as has US-based advisory group, the Commission on International Religious Freedom.

Some French MPs claim young Muslim women are being forced to wear the headscarf, though the few hundred who have turned out for demonstrations against the new law say they wear it of their own free will.

MPs from the Green party - who oppose the law - warn that far from helping integrate French Muslims, the ban will only worsen their feelings of alienation and exclusion from French society as a whole.

Unspoken in this entire debate is the government's need to boost its own popularity, and combat a rise in support for the far-right National Front, ahead of key regional elections next month, Caroline Wyatt says.


#54 the 'Hawk

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 11:42 AM

And this, which includes an interesting set of comments from across Europe, and a map of Western Europe showing what I have to believe are conservative estimates on the percentage of the total population that are Muslims.

:cool:
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#55 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 12:09 PM

Enmar, on Jan 23 2004, 04:31 PM, said:

Quote

QT:This is rather important. I don't think it is right AT ALL to ban bandannas in this situation - here are young girls TRYING to fit in AND obey the dictates of their faith - and THAT'S illegal?

But you're assuming their good will. We can also say that they wear black bandanas and mock the law. I'm not sure which is right, but I'd like to remind you that many of them admit they wear whatever head cloth because of social pressure and not out of belief. For these girls, the law is protection.This is far from being black and white situation.
I guess we've been down this road before - without knowing what is meant by "social pressure" I don't know what to say about it.  

I put quite a lot of social pressure on my son - he isn't allowed to watch some tv shows.  He's required to say grace at dinner.  When its time for prayer, he's got to stand up and make some effort at saying prayers.  Whether he likes it or not, he's got to read the extra stuff mom makes him read that his teachers don't.  Sometimes that includes religious literature.  

Call it whatever you want (not you Enmar! :)) I call it being a mom.

Or are we to the point of saying the only people who can put social pressure on children are the institutions that govern society?

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#56 Godeskian

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 01:32 PM

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Saudi Arabia's top cleric has accused the proposed French law of violating the human rights it claims to be defending

no, not their human rights, their religious rights, there is a difference. Nowhere in french law is there a clause specifically protecting peoples right to wear skullcaps

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