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Illegal Immigrant Poem

Immigration Media Poetry

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 02:36 PM

atta girl QT!  :)
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#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 02:55 PM

Ilphi:

Re-- The Maddox Page

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"Because saying that an illegal immigrant doesn't deserve to be paid the same wages as an American because he doesn't belong here in the first place is like saying that a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place."

I think the metaphor falls apart there. There's a difference between negligence and knowingly violating a country's borders. A better metaphor would be home invasion, although that's also problematic.

Maddox is right though that the problem is largely because of those who employ the criminals; levying huge fines against corporations who do so is probably the way to go. Unfortunately, neither side has the political will to do it.
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#23 the 'Hawk

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 03:00 PM

I'm sorry, why are we legitimating the b*llsh*t that is the reason for this thread with an attempt at reasonable discussion? There's nothing reasonable being displayed here. So, why bother?

If anyone needs me, send a PM.

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#24 HubcapDave

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 03:01 PM

Wow, I didn't know you could buy a house on Welfare money! ;)

Personally, I would say that as a broad generality of the attitude of all illegal immigrants, the poem is unfair (and a bit racist too boot, though xenophobic might be the better term).

But please do not try to tell me that there aren't illegals here working the welfare system for everything they can get.

#25 Kevin Street

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 03:07 PM

I agree with Hawk. The side discussions are interesting, but the post that started this thread isn't worthy of comment.

Sorry LoTS, but this thread is a misfire.
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#26 Aurelius

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 06:33 PM

I've seen this rubbish before. I'm surprised that it ended up on the Exisle, but given who posted it, I really shouldn't be.  :glare:  :thumbs-down:  :thumbs-down:  :rolleyes:

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#27 Kevin Street

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 07:14 PM

Now, now. There's no need to get personal. Let's just move along.

#28 Aurelius

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 07:56 PM

Not getting personal Kevin, that poem just seems to be in keeping with what LOTS has been saying recently, so I'm not really surprised that he posted it here.

Not impressed in the slightest though either, but that's neither here nor there.

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#29 Chipper

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 07:58 PM

Can you see the flames rising up out of my head?  Because their's a fire worthy of comparison to a nuclear bomb in my mind right now...

I'm disgusted.  By what?  Is it the "poem" if you can call it that (and frankly, if I EVER see that sort of thing on this board again I will do something I really don't want to....), the mocking of a people who came here to find a better life, legal or not?  

Or the fact that a poster on this board decides to demonize an entire racial group based on the actions of 19 terrorists as well as other international terrorist organizations that has members from that racial group?


I'm leaning towards the latter...

A disgusted Chipper, leaving before he shoots off...


BTW, Ilphi, what does it say on that link?  My ISP seems to have some sort of NetNanny now and I can't view it at all...

Edited by Chipper, 24 January 2004 - 07:59 PM.

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#30 Beldame

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 07:58 PM

Similar 'poems' have been circulated in the UK trying to whip up bad feeling against asylum seekers based on the same 'they' are getting more than we are and will take over paranoia.
My understanding is that America is full of people whose ancestors ''crossed the ocean poor and broke''. Luckily for them they weren't met by attitudes like this.
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#31 Uncle Sid

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 08:18 PM

Quote

My understanding is that America is full of people whose ancestors ''crossed the ocean poor and broke''. Luckily for them they weren't met by attitudes like this.

Actually, a lot of them were met with attitudes like this, although it didn't really start until the East Coast area filled up and there was no new place to settle as an immigrant without neighbors.  

Certainly, the Irish and Italians were met in this manner.  For the most part, Catholics in general would have been also met in this manner.  Blacks didn't have to worry about immigration, but they had problems of their own once they got here.  

Of course, the biggest problem is that Asians not only start off with a different culture, but also look significantly different than your usual white person (obviously).  However, even back when the underclass was Irish or whatever, you'd be surprised just how well people could pick out someone who was one of those groups from a crowd, even though the Irish come from an island that's right adjacent to good old WASPy England and not 4000 miles away.  

As far as the bit of verse at the beginning of the post goes, it is interesting to compare it to similar things said about other immigrants in the past.  So far, immigration hasn't killed this country, and in fact, it's about the only thing keeping the population level from receeding in the US like it is in Europe.  Immigrants DO have their issues, and can be challenging to begin with, but they have been and can be dealt with.
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#32 Munrock

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 08:55 PM

Now I could follow LotS style eye-4-an-eye justice and take the oppurtunity to make an offensive and unfairly racist remark in return, but instead I'll just turn the other cheek.

Slap me again.
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#33 G1223

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 09:13 PM

First he did not say a thing about agreeing with the document he said he merely got  via EMail. I have gotten some asking me to oppose abortion. which have the most disgusting of pictures.

So why not ask his opinion before you jump him. I think the document is topical becuase there is a discussion about giving amensty to illegals  but it requires them comming out to be counted.

While I disgree with it I see that both sides need talk about it.

#34 Uncle Sid

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 09:53 PM

^
That said, basically posting without comment invites speculation as to the intent of the poster and leads inevitably to having the item taken at face value.  While we should be critical of our own assumptions, complaining that a person is misunderstood in this case is not a very successful tactic.  

What if I posted a "Bush-Cheney 2004" campaign image from their site without comment at the beginning of a thread and said,

"I posted this because it's an election year and is topical... discuss."  

Would people think that I was mocking the Republican candidates by posting an unaltered image from their campaign site without comment?   If they didn't know me, they might wonder, but if they did know that I'm a Republican, they could conclude that I'm in full support of Bush and pushing his candidacy.  Wouldn't you?  

If LotS has something of his own to say about why he posted it, he's quite capable of typing it out.  It *is* topical, but it does need to be put into context since it is a new thread.  
Certainly, something like this needs a preamble to at least get an idea of what line of constructive thought that he felt might be constructive about this.  Otherwise people might wonder if he's not trying to whip up some anti-Immigrant feeling or push his views on the matter.

Personally, I'm not jumping to conclusions, but I do feel that the item and it's presentation were sub-optimal.  

Oh and before I forget:

To all...

This sort of topic has a way of making the thread less about the topic and more about the personalities discussing the topic.  If you have something to say about the verse, go right ahead, but make sure and measure any responses about posters carefully.
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#35 Shalamar

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 09:56 PM

Firstly let me say that I do Not in any way like this 'poem'

However, as G said above LotS never in his original post said he agreed with it or liked it .

Raceist? No I do not agree that it is raceist. Yes this 'poem' mentions Pakistan in the last sentence but no other content is raceist...

What it is about is a group of people that come from many races and countries...

Illegal Immigrants.... and more specifically illegal immigrants that take advantage of america's often broken systems, or are allowed to take advantage of them...

and you know that's no ones fault but we americans.  We will sit here and gripe all day about the problems - but how many of us gripers are out there doing what we can to get our broken things fixed?  How many of us are actively writing our Representatives and Senators ?


I have no problem with people immigrateing to the US, provided they do it legally.  Legally! And that is the make or break point for me.
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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 10:39 PM

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I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt until I got to *that* post. I can't even articulate how out of line you are LOTS because if I try my temper will get the better of me. BTW, did you know that the Inquisition was perpetrated by Christians? Let's now demonize ALL Christians. The same way some people demonize all Jews because Christ died at their hands.

How am I out of line? Because I answered his question? What? Is that not allowed on this board? I *never*, not once, said it was alright people felt that way...I merely posted why *some* people felt anger toward Muslims! If that's out of line, the frell it I'll be out of frelling line. But, DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

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Wow. Well then. I appreciate your right to your opinion and your right to speak it. I hope you appreciate my right not to respond to you beyond this post.

OK, what part of "Playing devil's advocate" didn't you understand?

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I've seen this rubbish before. I'm surprised that it ended up on the Exisle, but given who posted it, I really shouldn't be.

LOL. Now, why does that not surprise me...LMAO

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Not getting personal Kevin, that poem just seems to be in keeping with what LOTS has been saying recently, so I'm not really surprised that he posted it here.

Not impressed in the slightest though either, but that's neither here nor there.

Contrary to your opinion, wasn't trying to *impress* you. I could care less if you were impressed, or not. And as for this being what I usually post...Sorry if my hard stance on criminals offends you. I happen to feel that people shouldn't get away with crime, but I guess you feel a criminal should have more rights then a law abiding citizen.

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Now I could follow LotS style eye-4-an-eye justice and take the oppurtunity to make an offensive and unfairly racist remark in return, but instead I'll just turn the other cheek.

Again, where did I say I agreed with it? I do not feel that we should give sanctuary to those that come here knowingly breaking the law? And I certainly wouldn't give them valid driver's licenses, but that's neither here nor there. If an immigrant wants to come to the USA let them do it LEGALLY!

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First he did not say a thing about agreeing with the document he said he merely got via EMail...So why not ask his opinion before you jump him.

Thank you G. No, I don't agree with categorizing a whole group based on skin, or anything else. As for those who just assumed what I meant...well, you know what happens when you assume.

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That said, basically posting without comment invites speculation as to the intent of the poster and leads inevitably to having the item taken at face value.

Heaven forbid an opening post should spark a debate or, the horrors, a discussion.  :eek2:  :sarcasm:

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If LotS has something of his own to say about why he posted it, he's quite capable of typing it out. It *is* topical, but it does need to be put into context since it is a new thread.

And so I have. And, again, by "It is typical" if you're referring to my harsh stance of criminals...Sorry, but I happen to believe that they shouldn't be given special treatment.

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Raceist? No I do not agree that it is raceist. Yes this 'poem' mentions Pakistan in the last sentence but no other content is raceist...

Thank you. I'm glad to see that someone actually took the time to *read* it.
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#37 Uncle Sid

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:03 PM

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Heaven forbid an opening post should spark a debate or, the horrors, a discussion.

That is not the point and you know it.  It's not like it's difficult to get people to talk about immigration policy anyhow.  Besides, the tone of the thing is so extreme that it's not inducing a discussion, but rather an argument.  How can you discuss something rationally with such a purposely overblown and inaccurate set of suppositions?  Especially without guidance from the topic starter.  

This is meant to be humor for people who buy into the anti-immigrant mindset.  The problem is that nothing can be as offensive as a joke that you don't think is funny at all.  

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And so I have. And, again, by "It is typical" if you're referring to my harsh stance of criminals...Sorry, but I happen to believe that they shouldn't be given special treatment.

Dude, I didn't say "typical", I said "topical".  Read the line you quoted again.  

Finally, I want to point something out that I haven't addressed before here.  Playing Devil's Advocate is a rhetorical tool, it's not a justification.  That means that you need to justify it's use, usually with a great deal of reasoned points about an opposing point of view.  And generally those points are supposed to be ones that create *sympathy* for the opposing side.  If you are playing Devil's Advocate with this piece, then I'm having trouble seeing your angle.  

I'm not saying you meant to be offensive, but I do think that if you're trying to create a reasoned discussion on immigration, your chosen tactic has not succeeded.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 24 January 2004 - 11:04 PM.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#38 G1223

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:11 PM

I agree Sid but  I also thought it and still do that folks are willing to jump on LotS just because he posted.

#39 schoolpsycho

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:22 PM

***Thank you. I'm glad to see that someone actually took the time to *read* it.***

Rant time.

That's the problem. We *did* read *it*.

I read *it*

It is racist.

It is bigoted.

It is prejudiced.

It is anti-Muslim.

It is anti-Black.

It is anti-White.

It is anti-American.

And do NOT, DO NOT insult our intellegence with the "I never said it" excuse, because you didn't have to. The fact that you wanted to "share" that SOMEONE ELSE did said it for you.

Let me tell you something. I don't give a rat's ass if you hate me, my race, which is Black, my people, which are African American. I don't care. But, I WILL BE DAMNED if I am going to sit here and have someone else tell me that this blantantly obvious personal attack against non-Whites was nothing more than just an email that might offend me, I'm overreacting, and that my friends, acquaitances, and people I've had problems and difficulties in the past who call this place home, who are in agreement with me, that we're wrong about this. Because, we're not.

Now Then:

To the Administration.

You wonder why I want nothing, and no deals from you? This is why. You have made me untrustworthy. To allow this piece of garbage from the bowels of e-mail Hell may be freedom of expression, but it violates the spirit of good will and cheer you like to parade like candy. There will be no discussion. No compromise on this for me. My mind is made up. I know I have no power. But, I just wanted you to know, I am very dissappointed.

sp

Edited by schoolpsycho, 24 January 2004 - 11:23 PM.

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#40 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:31 PM

That's frelling it. I've had it. You want to play that way, bet...the gloves are frelling off!

Quote

Rant time.

That's the problem. We *did* read *it*.

I read *it*

It is racist.

It is bigoted.

It is prejudiced.

It is anti-Muslim.

It is anti-Black.

It is anti-White.

It is anti-American.

Put up or shut up. Show me where, in that poem, it says anything, anything, racist?

Quote

And do NOT, DO NOT insult our intellegence with the "I never said it" excuse, because you didn't have to. The fact that you wanted to "share" that SOMEONE ELSE did said it for you.

Insult your intelligence? For that to be possible would mean that you would actually have intelligence, now wouldn't it? And, from your post, it appears you don't.

Quote

Let me tell you something. I don't give a rat's ass if you hate me, my race, which is Black, my people, which are African American. I don't care. But, I WILL BE DAMNED if I am going to sit here and have someone else tell me that this blantantly obvious personal attack against non-Whites was nothing more than just an email that might offend me, I'm overreacting, and that my friends, acquaitances, and people I've had problems and difficulties in the past who call this place home, who are in agreement with me, that we're wrong about this. Because, we're not.

Number frelling one, I NEVER SAID I hated your race! It would appear, however, that you hate my race...which is white. So, what I suggest is that if you have a problem with white people...go see a counselor. I've neither the time, nor the patience, to help you through your racist issues.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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