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Illegal Immigrant Poem

Immigration Media Poetry

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#41 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:31 PM

G1223, on Jan 24 2004, 11:11 PM, said:

I agree Sid but  I also thought it and still do that folks are willing to jump on LotS just because he posted.
As I said before, sometimes I have that effect.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#42 Chipper

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:34 PM

Quote

Again, where did I say I agreed with it? I do not feel that we should give sanctuary to those that come here knowingly breaking the law? And I certainly wouldn't give them valid driver's licenses, but that's neither here nor there. If an immigrant wants to come to the USA let them do it LEGALLY!

Yes, let them do it legally, yet are you really suffering for them being here?  When they cut the grass, do the construction work...

I'm not trying to advocate illegal immigrants, but some of them came here legally and lost their status due to innocent errors as well (though the majority did not), however maybe there is a reason they come here?  To escape the suffering in their own countries?

Quote

Thank you. I'm glad to see that someone actually took the time to *read* it.

Oh I read it.  And if you wanna *********** accuse me of not reading it....oh boy.....

That poem is a mockery.  Look at the way it is written, look at the comments in it....

Did you expect us to welcome it with open arms?  

I'm really trying to control mmyself but I am speaking this as an immigrant....and I'm disgusted.
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#43 Kevin Street

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:38 PM

And I'm tired of the arguments.

Folks, sometimes a thread can have a lot of heat but little light. Is this worth getting upset about? Let's move on.

#44 G1223

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:40 PM

LotS  as one who has advocated your right to post this as it is free speech. Stop insulting or allowing yourself to be baited to speak like this.

#45 Chipper

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:43 PM

OK, LotS, you wanna see racist?  I'll show you racist...

---------
I cross ocean,

poor and broke,

Take bus,

see employment folk.




Nice man treat me

good in there,

Say I need to

see welfare.
----------

From the get go, we've got a poem written in a matter that implies the lack of English as a native language, but it isn't done seriously, it's made to be cute, to mock the people who don't know the language as well as others.  Read it and see!

-------

Welfare say,

"You come no more,

We send cash

right to your door."




Welfare checks,

they make you wealthy,

Medicaid it keep

you healthy!




By and by,

I got plenty money,

Thanks to you,

American dummy.

---------

Now you have the stereotype that the immigrant laughs at the american dummy for paying for all the stuff the immigrant gets.  No mention of the immigrant working the work that Americans refuse to do.  Because what...it's beneath them?  Hah, white supremacy lives on!

---------


Write to friends

in motherland,

Tell them 'come

fast as you can.'




They come in turbans

and Ford trucks,

I buy big house

with welfare bucks

----------

turbans and ford trucks?  Ummm....yeah because you know I came here wrapped in a kimono.  NO, I came here dressed as any person dresses in Bulgaria.  Is that a problem?  Now again, we have the "welfare" and the "big house"  I've yet to see an illegal immigrant with a big house.  Play on American nativism why dont ya?

-------

They come here,

we live together,

More welfare checks,

it gets better!




Fourteen families,

they moving in,

But neighbor's patience wearing thin.




Finally, white guy

moves away,

Now I buy his house,

and then I say,




"Find more aliens

for house to rent."

And in the yard

I put a tent.
------------

:rolleyes:  

---------



Send for family

they just trash,

But they, too,

draw the welfare cash!




Everything is

very good,

And soon we

own the neighborhood.




We have hobby --

it's called breeding,

Welfare pay

for baby feeding.


----------

Hobby called breeding?  ********************** if I ever find the author of this...........

----------

Kids need dentist?

Wife need pills?

We get free!

We got no bills!


--------

Yeah, because you know, they don't live in places like we do....hah.  Again, play on the issues that they do nothing.  They probably work more than most of us.

--------

American crazy!

He pay all year,

To keep welfare

running here.




We think America

darn good place!

Too darn good for

the white man race.

--------

Anti white man for god sake...let's have all the immigrants make fun of the natives here.  Because you know, the country wasn't built on the backs of the Irish, the Germans, the Eastern Europeans that are all WHITE that all came from EUROPE not ASIA or AFRICA....

------


If they no like us,

they can scram,

Got lots of room in

Pakistan.

-------

*feel the flames*


0---------

SEND THIS TO EVERY AMERICAN

TAXPAYER

YOU KNOW
------------

F*********** racist b*llsh*t!
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#46 the 'Hawk

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:44 PM

schoolpsycho, on Jan 24 2004, 11:22 PM, said:

To allow this piece of garbage from the bowels of e-mail Hell may be freedom of expression, but it violates the spirit of good will and cheer you like to parade like candy. There will be no discussion. No compromise on this for me. My mind is made up. I know I have no power. But, I just wanted you to know, I am very dissappointed.
That makes two of us.

We start tolerating this in the devil's advocacy, and we advocate for no one else but.

There is no defense for the intolerance and disrespect that is being demonstrated through the continued and baffling allowance of this thread to continue. One mod has already spoken up against it --a mod of this forum, no less. And yet those words ring hollow--- despite a plethora of our members saying that this is offensive, still nothing appears to be done. Instead we entertain this travesty and label it 'discussion'.

I was not angry since I came to the Isle until this instant-- nothing that has happened so far outside of my own actions has traversed the line of good sense that I perceive to be existent in good faith and in good practice among the membership of this community. I am further deeply offended that no serious action has been taken upon this matter --all in the name of an imprudent leniency. And to what end? That we should sit here and have the matter taken up at length instead of the heinousness of posting it? That we should entertain the notion that this is all being undertaken as some sort of obscene public service, in the name of free speech?

Free speech is an illegitimate excuse and an abuse of that right. I will not attempt to traverse the rationale that led to this being posted, nor will I make any personal comments on the parties responsible for the creation, and perpetuation, of the offenses I perceive clearly and foully in this very thread. I strongly believe the guidelines of this board are set up precisely to ensure such matters as this thread are not entertained as 'discussion', and I further believe that should those guidelines not be enforced --especially considering the outcry from the membership and the word of a moderator-- then those guidelines are a document void in effect.

I shall tolerate it no further. Either make your move, kind admins and mods, or consider what follows carefully. There is no characterizing this thread as a legitimate attempt at discussion any longer. Should I have to post again, it will be with all the things my considerable reservedness is not permitting me to say.

Because unlike sp, who I think does himself an injustice by suggesting he has no power, I have, at the very least, two powers at my command.

I have the power to use my words to the greatest effect possible --an effect that I am assured you all have seen demonstrated previous, one I will not hesitate to bring to bear should I so rouse myself.

And I have the power to take my ruffled feathers elsewhere until the matter is dealt with. Or simply for an indefinite period.

I have spelled out my two next moves.

Choose yours carefully.

And have a super day.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#47 schoolpsycho

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:48 PM

***Put up or shut up. Show me where, in that poem, it says anything, anything, racist?***

Finally, white guy

moves away,

Now I buy his house,

and then I say,




"Find more aliens

for house to rent."

And in the yard

I put a tent.

***Insult your intelligence? For that to be possible would mean that you would actually have intelligence, now wouldn't it? And, from your post, it appears you don't.***

I always say I'm an idiot...oh, well. That makes two of us.

***Number frelling one, I NEVER SAID I hated your race! It would appear, however, that you hate my race...which is white. So, what I suggest is that if you have a problem with white people...go see a counselor. I've neither the time, nor the patience, to help you through your racist issues.***

And I don't care if you do. I don't care if you say it. You don't have to say it. All you need to do is share emails like this. You do their work for them. Especially if you don't hate us. That's why this is the issue.

And the love of my life is a White Woman. So, no, I don't hate Whites. At all.

sp
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#48 MuseZack

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 11:53 PM

I've said my piece on this poem.  I think it's racist, I think it's largely untrue, and I think it's a bad poem.  Note I was talking about the poem, not the person who posted it.  I still think LoTS is a good guy, even if I wish he hadn't posted this.  But it's disingenuous as hell to note in your thread title that some people may be offended by the poem and then act shocked, shocked, when people read it and are offended.

There.  I'm done.  Checking out of this thread for good.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#49 schoolpsycho

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 12:01 AM

Hi, Hawk.

Thank you.

When I said I didn't have any power, it was in reference to TPTB, because they do. They are the ones in charge. They could've nipped this, but did not. And yes, they would've gotten Hell for it, but they would've scored great in my book.

The power I have is to speak my mind, and yes, I got blasted, but I made my point.

Mission Accomplished. ;)

sp
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#50 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 12:45 AM

the'Hawk, on Jan 24 2004, 08:44 PM, said:

schoolpsycho, on Jan 24 2004, 11:22 PM, said:

To allow this piece of garbage from the bowels of e-mail Hell may be freedom of expression, but it violates the spirit of good will and cheer you like to parade like candy. There will be no discussion. No compromise on this for me. My mind is made up. I know I have no power. But, I just wanted you to know, I am very dissappointed.
That makes two of us.

We start tolerating this in the devil's advocacy, and we advocate for no one else but.
I must disagree.  I believe that it was an error in judgment for LOTS to post this poem.  I think it is a racist/xenophobic/anti muslim and just flatly disgusting piece of trash and I think that LOTS' posting of it demonstrates his agreement with the poem (or at least evidences it).  I also acknowledge that this internet site is not technically governed by the United State Constitution.  That said, I would like to hope that tptb of this site would to the best extent possible, not ban postings like LOTS simply because it deviates with what most people here think.  

If it is okay for people to post about how they think homosexuality is wrong, or how same sex marriage is wrong, or how Bush has the right of it with his idea of  protecting the sanctity of marriage, all ideas that I think more than a few of us find every bit as offensive as the "poem" that is the subject matter of this thread, then LOTS is damned well allowed to post what he did.  Of course this does not mean that those who disagree are disallowed from vehemently  voicing their opinions as well.

I may not like what you said LOTS but I will defend your right to say it.  Just like I defended the US Supreme Court's decision in the Skoke case because as far as I am concerned it IS the same damned thing.

sp and  'hawk, I have probably offended you both and I am sorry for that.  Please understand that I'm not defending the content of the poem.

Lil
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#51 Rov Judicata

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 12:58 AM

Heya all,

Let me just remind you that one of the fundamental rules of Ex Isle is free speech to a greater degree than you'll find on most other messageboards. I cherish that, and we'd lose much of what we are without it. Let's not change the character of this place because we all got hot on a Saturday afternoon, eh? Life's too short.

The best wait to fight what you perceive as misconceptions is via facts, not shutting down the debate. If something is so egregious that it's not worth debating... than don't.

Threads are, quite literally, merely a mechanism for gaining responses. If threads don't have your participation, then they're invariably less than what they could have been. If a thread is that bad... make it less.

JMTC.

-- Rov
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#52 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 01:00 AM

Thanks Rovvie.  Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly.
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#53 Uncle Sid

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 01:28 AM

Rov said it well.  I would have had something posted earlier, but I keep having timeout problems to the board for some reason.  

Invariably, "nipping in the bud" requires a value judgement on the staff's part about what we are "nipping".  Yes, there are times we may have to make that choice, but you can also choose to walk away as well.  There is no inevitable path to meltdown.  

This so called powerlessness is not that at all.  There's dozens of active topics on this board and many in this forum.  If this thread contributes to you being upset, then say your peace and go on to another one. It will go away faster.

If you think a topic sucks, there's no power that I have that can make it not suck.  I can pull out the nuclear option, but that's a very slippery slope and it was never meant to happen here except in the cases of real trolls, not people who simply have an opinion that others don't like.  

We have committed to try and maintain a fair amount of freedom of expression here.  Some expression is ugly, but having the mods create an artifically happy place doesn't make that go away.  

As always, I invite you to message me if you have anything you'd like to discuss.  I'm sure that goes double for Kevin.
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#54 Kevin Street

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 01:29 AM

:welldone: Well said, Rov!

EDIT: Yes, what Sid said, too. Please PM us if you want to discuss any issues with this forum.

Edited by Kevin Street, 25 January 2004 - 01:30 AM.


#55 schoolpsycho

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 01:54 AM

Hi, Lil...

I was going to let this go. Honestly, I was.

But I couldn't. Why? I'm an idiot.

But, more, it wasn't due to the fact that he posted it. That I could deal with. It wasn't the fact that it was crap. That I could deal with. Though, for those 2 reasons alone, it was worthy of censure. But they won't. I can deal with that, but I will comment at the end.

It was that it was so obvious, and he made light of it. Personal insults and accusations done to the tune of Harry Belafonte, and he accuses us of not taking the time to read it. Hundreds of views? I think we did.

Well, I did. We all did.

Worse than that, whether he agrees with it or not.

He was the tool they used.

And he let himself be used.

For, it's stuff like it that makes it hard on us all.

And now, further to the Administration.

Take a look. This is me. The very one that has no intellegence, that hates Whites. The very things someone else accused me of. They may be true. But, from all my White friends, and all my Black friends, my gay friends, and straight friends, I'm sure they'd take issue.

But, say I am. If it is racist to defend myself and my people against obvious bigotry and hatred, then I am.

If it is racist to call what I saw nothing more than inflammatory, devisive material, then I am.

If it is racist to defend everyone this material badmouths, slights, insults, falsely accuses, outright lies about, or just plain makes people feel bad, then I am a racist.

But it's his right, right?

Very well. But, if it is his right to post this, it is our right to demand he not. Not that you'll do anything about it. Oh, I know. Freedom Of Speech. Tell me that again for the millionth time. One of you wanted this to go away, move on. Well, guess what, this isn't going away. I don't expect it to. Your lack of action will make sure it will not.

You pride yourselves on the fact of free and open ideas? Good. But, this was not based on freedom of ideas. It was based on a sick joke. And it was tolerated. TOLERATED. Does freedom of speech mean to demean without regard for feeling? I'm starting to think so. Our feelings mean nothing, it was just a poem. Just something to forget. To slide down into nothingness. Well, it won't.

Everyone who is/was personally affected will not forget, will not let it slide, and it will never be nothing.

I will be leaving soon; this matter unrelated. But I guarantee you, when another poem comes up, say about anything you'd rather not want, this will come up again. And next time, you may not get off that easy. I am forgiving. But I am not blind. I know who posted, but even more, I know who allowed. I won't forget.

Freedom Of Speech is one thing. Allowing it to spread hate through humor is something else. And you mock that freedom everytime you allow this. You allowed the degredation of many. And you mocked them.

You will again.

I'll just hope I won't be here when you do.

sp

Edited by schoolpsycho, 25 January 2004 - 02:06 AM.

Love is hard...and all there is.

#56 Kevin Street

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:00 AM

Thank you for your input, schoolpsycho. But if you feel that the mods/Admins have been deficient in this thread, please PM us and/or start a thread to discuss your concerns in AQG.

#57 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:06 AM

Unbelievable.

The poem in question assumes that the only people affected by the problem of illegal immigration are white people.  Not Americans... WHITE PEOPLE.  Unless - unless only white people are Americans?  


QT

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#58 schoolpsycho

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:10 AM

Hello, Kevin...

I've said all I'm going to. I am not in the business of repeating myself. This has been long enough.

Take it for what you will. But it's there. If you want to deal, do it.

Just not with me.

sp
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#59 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:16 AM

Here's the part of your post I agree with:

Quote

But, more, it wasn't due to the fact that he posted it. That I could deal with. It wasn't the fact that it was crap. That I could deal with. Though, for those 2 reasons alone, it was worthy of censure. But they won't. I can deal with that, but I will comment at the end.

It was that it was so obvious, and he made light of it. Personal insults and accusations done to the tune of Harry Belafonte, and he accuses us of not taking the time to read it. Hundreds of views? I think we did.

Well, I did. We all did.

Worse than that, whether he agrees with it or not.

He was the tool they used.

And he let himself be used.

Here's the part I disagree with and/or have further comment about:

Quote

Take a look. This is me. The very one that has no intellegence, that hates Whites. The very things someone else accused me of. They may be true. But, from all my White friends, and all my Black friends, my gay friends, and straight friends, I'm sure they'd take issue.

First of all I would never say that you are unintelligent and from what I know of you you don't hate anyone based on their skin color.


Quote

But, say I am. If it is racist to defend myself and my people against obvious bigotry and hatred, then I am.  If it is racist to call what I saw nothing more than inflammatory, devisive material, then I am.

If it is racist to defend everyone this material badmouths, slights, insults, false accusations, outright lies about, or just plain makes people feel bad, then I am a racist.

If I understand correctly (and I may not), I am in no way saying that you should not defend yourself against bigotry.  But sp there is a difference between censUrship and censOrship.  One of the cornerstones of Free Speech is that you can't regulate how people feel.  I wish there was no bigotry at all in the world. But illegalizing mere expression of it is not the answer. Education and dialogue and regulation of conduct such as employment practices is.  And,. telling people that they're being racist is.  Objecting.  In the strongest terms is.  And no one, ESPECIALLY not me, is advocating against that.  Tell him off.  Tell him he f*cked up. Tell him you think he sounds like a racist. Say it loudly and clearly.  But telling him he CAN'T SAY what he thinks is what mocks freedom sp.  Because by doing that you play right into the hands of people who would pass constitutional amendments to ban same sex legal unions in the name of sanctimony.  THAT is what I'm talking about.  The big picture.  I understand that it hurts you to see bigotry.  It hurts me too.  Every time.  But the answer is not content based censorship.  




Quote

But it's his right, right?

Yes.  It is.  That is the price of freedom sp.  Sometimes it's a hard price to swallow but it *is* the price.

Quote

Very well. But, if it is right to post this, it is our right to demand he not.

Of course it is.  Just as it is my right to point out to you why such a demand is terribly shortsighted and misses the big picture.

Quote

Not that you'll do anything about.

Well it's not my call.  It's the call of those who run this place and I am not them.

Quote

Oh, I know. Freedom Of Speech. Tell me that again for the millionth time. One of you wanted this to go away, move on. Well, guess what, this isn't going away. I don't expect it to. Your lack of action will make sure it will not.

As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't go away.  As QT said much earlier in this thread, refusing to engage is not the answer.  Challenging.  Disagreeing.  Effecting change by peer pressure and censUrship rather than advocating a squelching of discussion is the answer.  

Quote

You pride yourselves on the fact of free and open ideas? Good. But, this was not based on freedom of ideas. It was based on a sick joke. And it was tolerated. TOLERATED. Does freedom of speech mean to demean without regard for feeling?

Yes.  It does.  It's sometimes unpleasant but it is still the price of freedom.  Just as the KKK is entitled to even EXIST, so is LOTS allowed to post this thread.  Do I LIKE that bigotry exists?  No.  Do I want to change it?  Yes.  But trying to regulate thought won't do it sp.  It just won't.  Sorry.

Quote

I'm starting to think so. Our feelings mean nothing, it was just a poem. Just something to forget. To slide down into nothingness. Well, it won't.

It wasn't just a poem.  It was a bigoted sick thing and it was ugly and it should NOT slide down into nothingness.  It should be villified.  It should be censured.  It should be exposed for the filth that it is.  But that will not be accomplished by closing threads or banning its posting.  

Quote

Everyone who is/was personally affected will not forget, will not let it slide, and it will never be nothing.

No one should.

Quote

I will be leaving soon; this matter unrelated. But I guarantee you, when another poem comes up, say about anything you'd rather not want, this will come up again. And next time, the next time, you may not get off that easy. I am forgiving. But I am not blind. I know who posted, but even more, I know who allowed. I won't forget.

You shouldn't forget.  You also should not threaten.

Quote

Freedom Of Speech is one thing. Allowing it to spread hate through humor is something else. And you mock that freedom everytime you allow this. You allowed the degredation of many. And you mocked them.

Anyone who reads this thread and can HONESTLY say that ExIsle tolerated racism is full of sh*t.  The poem was met with almost universal revulsion and censureship.  My feeling is that LOTS and anyone else who even remotely agrees with the sentiments expressed in the "poem" will think twice before posting something like that again.

Mission accomplished.  WITHOUT setting a dangerous precedent of content based censorship.

Lil
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#60 GiGi

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 03:07 AM

*SIGH*  I have stayed out of this thread just based on the title alone.  I hate reading stuff that degrades other people, or is abusive to animals, etc.  Once I get repulsive stuff in my head it is very hard to get them out.

But this has become heated and people are threatening to leave.

I speak as a poster on ExIlse, not as a mod, this is not my forum and I couldn't do anything about the post even if I wanted to.

I couldn't even read the whole "poem" as it was sickening to me.

As to removing it, that is a delicate question and I see all sides of the issue.  On one hand I agree with Lil about censorship.  And on the other hand what if someone had posted something that painted women in a disgusting light.  I think a few of us would want it gone.

I know the KKK is allowed to exist in America, but if a member posted some of their beliefs in all its glory (yes, I have read some, I and a few others had to hunt down a web host that ripped us clients off, my hunt lead to a racist site of the most disgusting nature, it was his latest project), I would hope it would be removed.  It is akin to trolling to me.  

What makes the difference?  If something hurts someone else, isn't that what the rules state?  Did this "poem" do that?  It seems it upset several posters quite a bit.  Is it truth?  Yes, in part, I too live in California and have seen gross ripoffs of the system, but that is the system's fault as well.  Let's discuss that head on as a real issue then.

Am I upset at LotS?  No.

Do I have an answer as to what to do about this or a future situation?  No.  It is a slippery slope for sure.  Personally, I would not want to see something like this here again, mostly because it isn't an item that can really be discussed, and it is hurting some of our friends, any more than I want to see a picture of a woman tied up and violated posted here. They just go over the line for me.  I do think there is a place where free speech stops because it has just gone into the realm of abuse.

My two pence.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama



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