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Bush Pledges to Restore Honor to the White House

Humor Satire GW Bush

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#81 Norville

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:07 PM

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As I say, morals of a tomcat -- but there are worse things than having sex and lying about it, such as, perhaps, taking one's country into war and making up different reasons for it as one goes along.
Nah Clinton just you know bombed an aspirin factory, took us into Kosovo where we had no interests at risk compared to Iraq(Milosevic was really going to bomb the East Coast), and then you know had in general enough scandals to make a Kennedy proud.

I think I should be terribly amused, CJ, that any time someone dislikes Bush, it's assumed that the person is a raving Clinton fan. I'm not, actually. About the only positive thing I can say about Clinton is that he was bright... but then, I immediately have to follow that up by saying that he absolutely misused and wasted his intelligence and acted like a moron. Quite the shameless con artist, and I loved how he went to war to get his sex life out of the headlines.

I know he did worse things than having sex and lying about it -- or at least, it's alleged that he did. Some of the claims about him are pretty paranoid, so I'm never certain quite what to believe. I only brought up the sex aspect of it because that's always what comes... up... first.  :Oo: (I should've found a better way to state that. ;) )

I keep hearing that the "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia never really happened, so Clinton should be charged with war crimes. Maybe because I know just how disgustingly humans can behave, I always assumed that it really did happen. I know that Anthony Loyd, who wrote the hair-raising book My War Gone By, I Miss It So, believed that it had happened, since he kept finding horrific remains. But since he'd had a drug habit (along with an addiction to being around war), I suppose it was all a drug-induced hallucination.

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Theodore Roosevelt, that Evil Liberal
I do hope that Liberal was a joke before TR comes back from the grave after you.

CJ, what a shame you don't understand the attempt at humor. Do I really have to explain that I keep getting bashed for being liberal because I don't like Bush, so I thought that in these hysterical "Support Bush or you're a traitor!" times, TR's comment about it being unpatriotic and servile to support a President no matter what would be considered "Evil Liberal"? I'm ever so sorry you didn't get the point, but I should've expected it. :sarcasm:

Edited by Norville, 03 February 2004 - 11:10 PM.

"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
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Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#82 Kevin Street

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:42 PM

I think it's apparent from context that CJ was also joking. But your quote was very apropos, Norville. Imo, Teddy Roosevelt would be horrified if he could come back and see how America was overextending itself today. A good hunter doesn't waste ammunition on passing gazelles when a lion or hyena could always come out of the bush and attack. If America really did have an enemy committed to its total destruction that was heedless of the possible consequences (the old USSR of cold war nightmares, say), this moment in history would be the perfect time to attack, since American forces are so committed in Iraq. If they could keep the conflict from becoming nuclear they might have a good chance of grinding US armed forces down to a stalemate and eventual withdrawal from Europe or somewhere else outside of North America. But fortunately for all us, there's no great power with that kind of reckless ambition today.

Ambition truly is the sickness of kings.

#83 the 'Hawk

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:49 PM

^ One could argue (and I would've argued earlier, but it's easier to play slap-the-other-partisan than engage in a debate over the facts) that the fact that all the lions are dead gives us time to engage the gazelle.

Make no mistake about it: deep inside every gazelle is the heart of a merciless killer! Beware--- if you're not careful, a gazelle could come in here RIGHT NOW and KILL YOU AND EVERYONE YOU CARE ABOUT!

Consider yourself forewarned.

Gazelles. The silent killers.

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~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#84 Kevin Street

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:56 PM

LOL :lol: But I'm just trying to say (in a really convuluted and metaphorical way) that the US should be wary in general of overcomitting itself. As you pointed out, the Cold War is over now and there isn't as much need for bases in places like Germany, so (imo) this would be a good time to refocus the Armed Forces on domestic commitments and the War On Terror, rather than a jihad for freedom in the Middle East. As soon as Iraq can stand on it's feet again (which will be years from now, no doubt), let it go. The war was a mistake.

#85 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:56 PM

Kevin Street, on Feb 3 2004, 11:40 PM, said:

I think it's apparent from context that CJ was also joking.
Nah Kevin I'm never sarcastic. ;) ;)  I mean I give Norville more credit than to assume Norville would think TR was a liberal. For the record I was kidding. :cool:
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#86 jon3831

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:03 AM

Kevin Street, on Feb 3 2004, 08:54 PM, said:

LOL :lol: But I'm just trying to say (in a really convuluted and metaphorical way) that the US should be wary in general of overcomitting itself.
Agreed.

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As you pointed out, the Cold War is over now and there isn't as much need for bases in places like Germany, so (imo) this would be a good time to refocus the Armed Forces on domestic commitments and the War On Terror, rather than a jihad for freedom in the Middle East.

Funny you should mention that...

I posted a thread on that very topic...

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As soon as Iraq can stand on it's feet again (which will be years from now, no doubt), let it go. The war was a mistake.

Well, whether the war was a mistake remains to be seen, IMHO. We can disagree with the reasons for starting it, but on the whole, I sincerely believe that the net result from this is going to be good. But, it going to take a few years to sort itself out.

Edited by jon3831, 04 February 2004 - 12:16 AM.

"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#87 the 'Hawk

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:03 AM

Kevin Street, on Feb 3 2004, 11:54 PM, said:

As soon as Iraq can stand on it's feet again (which will be years from now, no doubt), let it go. The war was a mistake.
Actually, I'd disagree with your last sentence.

Whether the war was a mistake or not has yet to be determined.

You can't mark homework while it's being written, after all. (I've tried.) ;)

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#88 Kevin Street

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 02:14 AM

Okay, you got me. I was wrong when I said that the war was a mistake. You're absolutely right that, in the broad historical sense, that has yet to be determined. Iraq may come out of this much, much, much better than it went in. But I think that in the more specific sense of "was the Iraq war a good thing for the United States," the answer to that would be, imo, that it was not.

#89 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 09:25 AM

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Kevin Street:But I think that in the more specific sense of "was the Iraq war a good thing for the United States," the answer to that would be, imo, that it was not.

And how can you assert it was no good for the United States when we don't even know how good it was for Iraq yet?  I'm sorry your statement reminds me of the people who claimed the Marshall Plan was a huge mistake because we were dumping all that money into Europe with no payback in sight.  Now more than 50 years from that point we can look back and say what a tremendous successful investment that plan was.

We won't have a inkling of how successful the invasion and liberation of Iraq was for the US for at least a decade if not two or three.  If it leads to a vibrant fear Iraq and the eventual downfall of other hostile regimes in the theater than it would be a tremendously huge good thing for the US.  Already the higher cooperation from Libya and Iran show the potential for what a good thing this could be for the US as it plays out.  

I think you are being hasty to pass judgment on something that requires the judgement of history 20 years or more from now.

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Kevin Street: But I'm just trying to say (in a really convuluted and metaphorical way) that the US should be wary in general of overcomitting itself.

We should be wary of that but i have a a  big but coming up.  We should also be wary of allowing potential threats to our security or the security of our interests exist.  We learned with North Korea that if you just attempt to shove the matter under the rug it will grow until you can't quite deal with it.  If you snuff those threats with sufficient force early on you can save a lot of pain down the road.

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Kevin Street: If America really did have an enemy committed to its total destruction that was heedless of the possible consequences (the old USSR of cold war nightmares, say), this moment in history would be the perfect time to attack, since American forces are so committed in Iraq. If they could keep the conflict from becoming nuclear they might have a good chance of grinding US armed forces down to a stalemate and eventual withdrawal from Europe or somewhere else outside of North America.

The nice thing about having a lot of nuclear weapons is it makes someone very inclined to not poke at you with a sharp stick.  I would have to say this isn't the perfect time in history to launch such an attack.  The reality is that while US Forces are badly overstretched now and do have one arm tied behind the back they are still the 900 lb gorrilla of the world.  If you want a look at  vulnerability look at the period from Vietnam to the Reagan Reconstruction of the 1980s.  Now that was a point where the US conventional forces were trashed and truly useless.  If the Soviets had come west at that point nothing short of the use of lots of tactical nuclear warheads would have stopped them.

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Norville: I think I should be terribly amused, CJ, that any time someone dislikes Bush, it's assumed that the person is a raving Clinton fan. I'm not, actually.
I should be amused by the fact that I was merely pointing out that Clinton did exactly what you accuse Bush of while you say Clinton did not do it.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#90 Lord Ravensburg

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 01:53 AM

aphrael, on Feb 3 2004, 08:48 PM, said:

Why are we not overthrowing other unjust and cruel dictators?  This a also a lame argument for this war.

I'm not changing my opinion and neither are any of you so lets just leave it at that.
And yet, once in a while, we do overthrow them.  

I can't help but notice that you still haven't answered CJ's question.

<edited for spelling>

Edited by Lord Ravensburg, 05 February 2004 - 01:55 AM.


#91 Rhea

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 03:26 PM

Kevin Street, on Feb 4 2004, 12:12 AM, said:

Okay, you got me. I was wrong when I said that the war was a mistake. You're absolutely right that, in the broad historical sense, that has yet to be determined. Iraq may come out of this much, much, much better than it went in. But I think that in the more specific sense of "was the Iraq war a good thing for the United States," the answer to that would be, imo, that it was not.
I would agree. And if a whole lot of Americans hadn't made that determination for themselves about the Viet Nam war, lord only knows when we would have gotten out of that one. We have the right at any time to have an opinion on whether or not the actions taken by our government are right for America.

Perhaps only history will tell whether it was overall a good or a bad idea. I think it was a BAD idea. And we're all allowed an opinion. This is NOT a dictatorship, where the President says jump! and we all ask "how high?".  It's a democracy, and one in which we can all have a voice if we care to.

Edited by Rhea, 05 February 2004 - 03:26 PM.

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#92 the 'Hawk

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 03:48 PM

^ That's a good point, but Vietnam and Iraq had entirely disparate systems.

In 'nam, the US was ostensibly there to back an ostensibly democratic regime. Sure, it's nice to pretend that South Vietnam was democratic, but I don't know who was kidding who. There US troops were pounding ground as part of that all-powerful and completely mythical construct of the Cold War, and dying in massive, massive numbers in the jungle.

This is nothing compared to Iraq. Iraq is as flat as a board and twice as humid. There were no sticky moral questions about the leadership of Iraq. Whether or not President Bush was simply finishing former President Bush's work, no one was exactly saying, "Saddam's a good guy, he's just really misunderstood." The intelligence on Saddam was as good as it gets.

That the WMD "reasons" for going to war were bunk is a matter for historians now. Honestly, I doubt even the best of intentions could've kept the President from taking out Saddam. The die was cast from the moment he was elected. If anything, 9/11 both got in the way (by forcing Afghanistan to the front) and facilitated the matter (by giving him a plausible framework from which to pre-emptively act).

But really, I don't care one way or another what happens in Iraq as long as it turns out more than just ostensibly democratic in nature. Same for Afghanistan. It matters more to me that, now that we've seen an end to a theocracy in one country and a totalitarian regime in another, those ends remain ends, and not a bridge into another regime or theocracy far worse.

The people of Iraq and Afghanistan both deserve more freedom than they've had under Saddam and the Taliban. There are plenty of other countries, perhaps some more "worthy" than others (whatever that is supposed to mean), but these things are not decided upon an objective scale of "who needs democracy most". In fact, the process makes little to no sense at all. Really, the President or the Pentagon or someone ordered the military actions in both countries. And the rest of the "checks and balances" followed that lead.

It's still too early to say one way or another if the right thing has been done for these two countries-- but it's certainly better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. As long as the candle stays lit.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK



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