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Marriage - What do you want out of it?

Culture marriage

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#61 Godeskian

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 01:59 AM

The problem is that what you learn from books, and stories, isnt' the same as learning in the real world.

In school, you get taught that mistakes are bad, to be avoided, and never repeated, in the real world, the only way you can really learn is by making mistakes and learning from them

minor example, but no one ever learnt how to ride a bike from a book or a story, they learnt, by getting on the damn thing and falling off repeatedly untill they got it right.

That's the way you learn in the real world, and it is completely at odds with the way people are expected ot learn academically.

By denying adolescents the rights to go out and make mistakes in the real world, we are denying them a valuable tool for learning.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't watch over the younger less experienced people btw, but neither should we stifle, or hold them back

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#62 Delvo

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 03:24 AM

Gaiate, on Feb 19 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

Consubstatial said:

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By keeping minors minors for so long, we may actually discourage them from learning independence and how to make the right decisions... We are raising a nation of perpetual children.

Or not.  Psychological studies for the past fifty plus years have consistently shown that humans don't reach full emotional and cognitive maturity until at least eighteen, and sometimes later.
That's pretty much the point. People stay childlike because society drags out cultural childhood well past the end of biological childhood.

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While I agree that people learn more from their mistakes than their successes, they can also learn from the experience of those who came before.  That would kinda be the point of society.
But it's something that modern Occidental society isn't doing very well, and even if shutting down one method and counting on the other to do it alone were good, shutting down BOTH still couldn't ever be.

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I'm not saying that people should necessarily be protected from the consequences of their decisions, just that they be given the necessary time to learn all they can before they have to make them.
The problem isn't time. No amount of time is sufficient if conditions are such that people are prevented from growing up by the time they're grown up. But if we weren't held back, the time given for this by nature would be plenty of time.

#63 Gaiate

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 03:40 AM

Delvo, on Feb 19 2004, 03:22 AM, said:

That's pretty much the point. People stay childlike because society drags out cultural childhood well past the end of biological childhood.

Biological childhood ends right around eighteen too, if you hadn't noticed.

Aside from that, there's no evidence that children in past centuries were any more emotionally or cognitively mature when forced into premature adulthood.  If anything, there's evidence supporting to opposite.

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But it's something that modern Occidental society isn't doing very well, and even if shutting down one method and counting on the other to do it alone were good, shutting down BOTH still couldn't ever be.

What are you talking about??  You seem to be arguing against something I never said.  Who's talking about shutting down both?  Or even shutting down *one*?

I said that children should be as informed and fully developed as they can be before they have to make adult decisions, and that they need the appropriate amount of time for that to happen.  I also said that they shouldn't necessarily be shielded from the consequences of their actions.  If they make a wrong move, they should know it.  But they shouldn't be making *adult* decisions when they're still teenagers.  Aside from the fact that there is a lot more they can learn, they aren't mentally mature.

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The problem isn't time. No amount of time is sufficient if conditions are such that people are prevented from growing up by the time they're grown up. But if we weren't held back, the time given for this by nature would be plenty of time.

If kids are being completely isolated from the world, then yes, you're right.  But I don't see anyone advocating that.

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#64 Consubstantial

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 11:25 AM

Gaiate, on Feb 19 2004, 06:53 AM, said:

Consubstantial said

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As to the environs being less forgiving in the past, I challenge that claim as well. Killed by a fuedal tyrant or killed by a gang banger, dead is dead.

You're simplifying the argument to the extreme.  You can't honestly believe that children today have it just as hard as children five hundred years ago.  We have advanced medicine, education, lives of relative safety.  The two situations are barely even comparable.

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Also, insuring that people wait until they are older does not prevent them from making a mistake. The divorce rate is sufficient evidence to disprove that claim.

No, but forcing them to make the decisions earlier forces them to make at best partially informed decisions with underdeveloped mental capacities.

I would also submit that the fact that it was virtually impossible for people to divorce hundreds of years ago is more a statement on the societal climate of the time, than today.

--Te
I'm certain that children exist all over this planet who have never had access to advanced medical care, education or a life of relative safety.  And some of those children live in the USA and other highly developed countries.  Children whose parents can't afford medical care often go without.  Education isn't free.  Registration costs, book rental and other fees that vary from school system to school system impede access for some children.  As to relative safety, relative is a relative term.  The dangers today differ from the dangers of the past; but we have children terrified to go to school because they might be killed by a classmate.

I never said anything about forcing children to marry.  Force is your word and in no way part of my point.  My argument is more that the choice of marriage should be up to the individual.  The government has no business saying who can and can't marry.  Nor does allowing individuals to choose necessarily mean that their decisions will be only partially informed or that their mental capacities are underdeveloped.  I've met teenagers with far more developed mental capacities than some "adults" I know.  Let me repeat.  I never said teenagers should be forced to marry.  I said that the government has no business denying them the choice.
From the start, our terms jump to conclusions--Kenneth Burke

#65 Consubstantial

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 12:02 PM

Gaiate, on Feb 19 2004, 08:38 AM, said:

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Biological childhood ends right around eighteen too, if you hadn't noticed.

Aside from that, there's no evidence that children in past centuries were any more emotionally or cognitively mature when forced into premature adulthood.  If anything, there's evidence supporting to opposite.

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But they shouldn't be making *adult* decisions when they're still teenagers.  Aside from the fact that there is a lot more they can learn, they aren't mentally mature.

--Te
Perhaps you define what you mean by biological childhood.  Under some definitions biological childhood ends at sexual maturity.

Again, no one other than you is talking about forcing teenagers to marry or into "premature adulthood."   Individuals develop differently.  Some people mature faster than others.  

There is no magic age at which a person becomes an adult.  Yet arbitrary decisions about adulthood made by governments prevent some emotionally and cognitively mature teenagers from making their own life decisions.

You mentioned evidence.  If you have evidence that preventing teenagers from making "adult" decisions is better for them emotionally and cognitively than permitting them the opportunity to make such decisions if they feel emotionally and cognitively capable, I'd like to see it.

As to whether teenagers should be making "adult" decisons, perhaps an understanding of what types of decisions are "adult" would enhance my understanding of your point.  Are decisions about drugs and drinking and smoking "adult" decisions?  What about decisions about sex?
Do you deny that teenagers face such choices regularly?  Do you stereotype all teenagers by claiming that none of them are emotionally or cognitively mature?  Can you prove that no individuals reach mental maturity during their teens?
After all, there is "a lot more" all of us can learn, including so called "adults."  By your reasoning, any person who still has "a lot more to learn" is still a child.  I'd say that group includes pretty much every person on the planet.
From the start, our terms jump to conclusions--Kenneth Burke

#66 WildChildCait

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 12:47 PM

let me ask.

Is it logical fo a couple to be able to marry and have a child, all the while being responsible for it and their house and domestic situation ?

Either the voting age needs to come down ot recognise these people as adults, or the marrying age as well as any laws pertaining to sex need to go up in age....

I'm just not sur which is worse

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