Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Appeals court agrees to rehear Roe V Wade

Roe Vs. Wade Abortion Appeals Court

  • Please log in to reply
83 replies to this topic

#1 Zoxesyr

Zoxesyr
  • Islander
  • 1,490 posts

Posted 19 February 2004 - 11:40 PM

So now that the whole world is watching SF go to court over marriages, conservatives have managed to get Roe v Wade back into the Appeals Court.

http://sfgate.com/cg...1715EST0723.DTL
www.zoxesyrbautie.com

#2 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 19 February 2004 - 11:52 PM

wonderfull,

i hope they throw it back out again, despite what the conservatives want, abortion really isn't going to go away, and i'd dread to think of a return to back alley abortions and 'black' medical practices for that purpose

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#3 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:09 AM

The case should be reheard -- the Roe vs. Wade decisions are ill-reasoned gibberish.


Quote

Amendment V
No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law....

Even if you choose to argue that a fetus isn't a person, you still have to contend with

Quote

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

And at the time the Supreme Court made its ruling, 46 states had laws against abortion.

Even if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, abortion would still be allowed in every state unless the state legislatures decided otherwise.

Edited by QuantumFlux, 20 February 2004 - 12:10 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#4 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:34 AM

*sigh*  Back to clothes hangers.  :(
Posted Image

#5 Uncle Sid

Uncle Sid

    Highly impressionable

  • Islander
  • 1,414 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:22 AM

In the slim possiblilty that people actually do the right thing and do outlaw abortions again (except for medical circumstances), perhaps we should be trying to keep the kids away from the clothes hangers and Mexican doctors by actually working on and sustaining a decent policy about proper sex education, combating unhealthy attitudes about sex and ensuring that women have the proper support to deal with unintended pregnancies.  *Those* were always the real problem with people getting abortions anyway and abortion on demand does *nothing* to deal with those issues.

Saying that abortion is safe because it's legal is like saying that sterilizing the bullets for someone before they commit suicide makes suicide safer.  Someone is still not going to walk away from either situation alive.  Needless to say, discussions about being able to kill your fellow person ever more antiseptically have never excited much enthusiasm in me.  Go figure.

Legal abortion is a cop-out and it's a cop-out that I find myself surprised that feminists tolerate, let alone support.  Even now, as sad as it is, we can use the abortion issue to get real work done to help these women, instead of continuing to drop the responsibility of executioner on them and telling them that we're doing them a favor.  Instead, we waste our time and effort on fighting for and against the right to drop the decision to kill innocents on them.  Looking at this, I start to understand just why it is so difficult to have world peace and feed the hungry.  No one is actually interested in solving the real problems involved.

Of course, my opinions are well known, so there's no sense going on about it.  Suffice it to say, I welcome the chance to have Roe v. Wade overturned, even if it's not going to happen.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 20 February 2004 - 01:23 AM.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#6 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:29 AM

my problem with the 'medical reasons only' argument is that it is sidestepping two issues

1. Pregnancies resulting from violence
2. Sex education isn't something that can affect a nation the size of the US overnight. It would take years, if not decades, to reteach people about sex, and how to behave responsibly, and in the meantime, untill such a goal was achieved (I believe it can happen, but only if the US goverment cared to make it happen, which i do not believe)  there would still be all these unwanted babies.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#7 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,309 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:08 AM

To the contrary, Gode - I doubt that there are very many people in the US, even in the poorest areas, that have no clue about sex education - and what little bit they DO have, is enough to build a foundation.  Further - in many places -sex education is already a fact.  I took it in Junior High School.  Further - improved methods of birth control are readily available...  and finally - I (personally) would count pregnancies resulting from rape as medical complications of the rape.

One last point - I live in a community that regularly has unwanted babies, despite the ready availability of abortions. I know at least one woman who may never be able to get pregnant because of one too many abortions - and who feels shamed, guilty, and disappointed by this.  Notwithstanding - in both cases - the availability of abortions was not the issue - the sexually irresponsible attitudes ARE.

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#8 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:19 AM

fair enough, point and point regarding the education

in which case, abolishing roe vs wade will only do even more damage. Changing the sexual attitudes of 280 million people is not something i imagine is easy in any case, even if they have the right education, and at least now, there is some assurance that the woman in question won't die from the procedure.

I knwo it's not perfect, i'm not even tryingt o justify it, all i'm saying is that i an attempt to stop abortions, people, both mothers and unborn children will still end up dying, just as they did before roe vs. wade.

and frankly QT, i don't think much of the US's sex education, nor do i think a great deal of the Uk's program. When i look at countries which have very low teen pregancy rates per head of population, i tend to look at what they are doing right education wise, because the whatever the US is doing, (and it is likely to be more than i assumed from your comments) it isn't anywhere near good enough.

#9 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:36 AM

"Sex education" usually contributes to the problem rather than solving it, because, having been invented by liberals who were responding to conservative culture's habit of trying to suppress and deny anything having anything to do with sex, it's based on the opposite extreme: do it as often as possible with as many people as possible with as much detachment from any human interaction or emotions as possible. The concept of consequences is only given cursory lip service only as a lead-in to presenting condoms as the magical cure-all taht erases all consequences and makes it all OK.

#10 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:46 AM

that must be the difference then, as when i had sex ed, we heard endlessly about the consequences of Sex, with the admonition that if you want to have sex, then have sex, but be damn carefull because there are consequences.

#11 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:02 AM

Abortions are not going to stop.  Since the dawn of time women have known ways to stop unwanted pregnancies.  It was done with herbs before modern medicine.

I believe in prevention first, early detection and immediate termination next.  If the pregnancy has gone further than the first several months, then I am against abortion, by that point a child has formed and other options should be looked at. (adoption)

Unfortunately there are those who abuse the situation and use abortion as birth control, that is abhorrent to me.

If the ability to go to the doctor and terminate a pregnancy is stopped women will turn to other methods I guarantee it.  The risk of bleeding to death is a real possibility be it with a hanger, herbs or a fall (yes, women have been known to jump off of high places to induce a miscarriage).  

Our efforts should not be to stop the unstoppable, but to work on our denial about young people having sex and the belief that they can just say no.  Some can, many can not.  Many girls get abortions without telling their parents for terror of the repercussions. They have to get an abortion, they feel they have no choice.  These things need to be faced with honesty before any real progress can be made.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#12 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:11 AM

Delvo, on Feb 19 2004, 11:34 PM, said:

"Sex education" usually contributes to the problem rather than solving it, because, having been invented by liberals who were responding to conservative culture's habit of trying to suppress and deny anything having anything to do with sex, it's based on the opposite extreme: do it as often as possible with as many people as possible with as much detachment from any human interaction or emotions as possible. The concept of consequences is only given cursory lip service only as a lead-in to presenting condoms as the magical cure-all taht erases all consequences and makes it all OK.
Goodness, I didn't get that kind of sex education in school!!  And I have seen upper class conservative yuppies have just as much meaningless casual sex in order to get notches on their belt as the touchy feely free-for-all hippy set.

Diatribes that distort the realities between conservative and liberal positions are really getting tiresome.  :rolleyes:
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#13 Uncle Sid

Uncle Sid

    Highly impressionable

  • Islander
  • 1,414 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 04:55 AM

That said, condoms and birth control are presented in such a manner as Delvo states.  "Safe" sex anyone?  :rolleyes:

Kids can and do say No to sex everyday.  A lot more of them used to do so in the past.  The problem is nowhere near insurrmountable.  It just has to actually be *taught*.  People need to get over this aversion to just bucking up and telling their kids to simply not have sex and then tell them in no uncertain terms precisely why they should not.  

As for stopping the "unstoppable", that logic defies understanding.  Of course we aren't going to end abortions, just like we aren't going to end murders, armed robbery and other crimes any time soon either.  Does that mean we make those legal as well?  Of course not.  If something is wrong, you don't just sit there and let it happen.  You *certainly* don't sit there and allow the government to allow it to continue happening.

We need to face the fact that the only time a woman is forced to have sex is when she is raped.  Peer pressure is tough, but it's still that person's decision and responsibility.  Pregnancy doesn't occur through osmosis, last time I checked.    

Promiscuous and dangerous sexual practices are not going to stop while were are enabling young women to evade their responsibilities.  Indeed, males acting in this manner are not going to learn responsibility either. Not while they are able to pressure a girl into sex and then pressure her into an abortion when there is an inconvenient pregnancy.

Yes, turning the problem around isn't going to happen overnight, but at the same time, not even close to all of the women who are now heading to legal clinics for abortions will turn to coathangers either.  That's just silly.  Admittedly, though, my sympathy is slight for people who would kill someone else to try ease their own suffering, no matter how acute it might be.

There is still going to be no change in correcting the attitudes that cause these problems because abortion on demand is an enabler for the continued expression of the current set of poor behaviors.  

Most importantly, of course, a few million less children will be slaughtered every year for no better reason than people not being able to keep their pants on.  

While people are being legally killed and at the same time, my tax money is going to kill those people against my will, I'm going to continue to speak out against this hideous so-called "right" built on a foundation of convenience and complete abandonment of responsibility.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#14 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 05:09 AM

dangerous sexual practices are extremely unlikely to be stopped by parents telling kids 'no',

that might have worked 30 years ago, but the world has changed, and i'm not convinced we should be turning back the clock.

#15 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 06:25 AM

When did that stop it from happening back 30 years ago. Even fifity years ago there were a number of forced upon marriages or the girl went away for a Summer ( Meaning she was getting it aborted or at least away from the community and people who would know who and what)  No abstince sometimes works and that is fine and wonderful but do not make it the whole game plan.

Like GiGi I do not see many people using abortion as a a form of birth control.  I do want there for those who make the informe dchoice I want ti there for those who are raped.

After the child is formed unless their is serious threat to the mother's life ( or even a means to have children later in life) she should be allowed a partial birth abortion and  not with some politicians approval.

If this should be but to the states there are some like Maryland that made the right to an abortion part of the state constitution.

My only limitation is those under the age of 18 getting an abortion without parental consent or with the approval of a family court judge.  The doctor performing the abortion would be facing legal action for doing such if an accident occured the clinic could lose it's licence.( Remember some clinics also provide prenatal  care for those with limited means)

Edited by G1223, 20 February 2004 - 06:37 AM.


#16 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 07:11 AM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 05:23 AM, said:

abstince sometimes works and that is fine and wonderful but do not make it the whole game plan.
No, abstinence always works, except for rape. The problem you described isn't abstinence failing; it's abstinence simply not being applied. This can indeed result from "education" that focusses only on abstinence as an authoritative order, since those beg for defiance. But that doesn't make abstinence itself a flawed plan, it just means many people won't follow unsupported orders and need to be shown the reasons for them; then they'd reach the same conclusion themselves. The problem is that you can't make the right decision without the right information, and that's just not being dispensed by "sex education" as we now know it.

Quote

Like GiGi I do not see many people using abortion as a a form of birth control.
What on person can "see" has nothing to do with what's actually going on. Rape, risk to mother's health, and feti with severe defects together account for a total of 7% of abortions. Guess what the other 93% are.

#17 WildChildCait

WildChildCait

    And from the ashes of fire, she is reborn

  • Islander
  • 3,416 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 07:38 AM

ok, i'm going to be contraversial.

I want the right to have an abortion.
I do not currently want children and feel that I am not 'mother' material.
I am not precluding it may or may not happen in the future that i might change my mind.
In the mean time, I have practiced abstincence for 3+ years.
However, I do want the right sh ould things go wrong, condoms fail as well as a morning after pill.
Yes, I want the choice.
I want teh right to chose NOT to have an abortion, or the right to chose to HAVE an abortion.
I want the choice.

and just saying no?
That's like saying 'do as I say, not as I do' from adults who usually are having sex.
Pure curiosity will lead many to it, and enjoyment will lead to more.

The more knowlege, the better chance htere is of prevention. Go sex ed.

Cheers
Chaddee
RIP Ruby Medallion: 31-10-1999/21-05-2007
one gender-reassigned, world travelling, world class snake.

FKA Chaddee, amongst other things.
http://scentedalchemy.webs.com Custom handmade bath and body products

#18 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,309 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 08:56 AM

Chaddee - I hear you, but look what you are saying.  You are saying you want risk-free sex.  That doesn't exist.  That's the message that needs to be taught - across the board.  Sex is NOT risk free.  

Lets look at this another way.  Condoms failing could also be the cause of transmitted incurable disease.  Yes - we'd like to cure incurable diseases - and we are working on it every day.  But failure to KNOW that it is a risk you are engaging in is just dumb.  Similarly - the idea that unborn babies are the disposable consequence of of people who simply want to pretend that it isn't a real risk is also wrong.

What's really wrong with saying - hey, since unplanned pregnancy and incurable disease is a possible (though slight) consequence of PROTECTED sex, I'll wait until I can have sex with someone with whom I'm prepared to face those consequences?

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#19 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 10:21 AM

QuantumFlux, on Feb 19 2004, 11:07 PM, said:

The case should be reheard -- the Roe vs. Wade decisions are ill-reasoned gibberish.
What QF said. Roe vs. Wade is very bad law. For that reason alone it should be reheard.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#20 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:25 AM

Delvo what I am trying to get across is that abstience works with willing people.  There is no way short of preventing people from getting access to abortions to make it remotely work.

So 93% of abortions are  just repeat customers comming becasue they got knocked up yet again.......and yet again. I somehow suspect that it is not a real number.

So Delvo what rights does a woman have to control her reproductive functions? I am gathering that it is merely hope she is lucky and she does not get pregnant. Is she to have her tubes tied  to enjoy the same act that guys of all ages get to enjoy with no worries of short of being made to pay child  support, Maybe she should just keep her legs closed like they were suppose to in the good old days (Except that was not working even then)

Sorry two standards do not work. Either accept the fact that women are wanting to have sex  and that sex can mean abortion as a last resort do not look at it like women who have one abortion are going to want to go back again and again  Or live a fanesty where it's ok for guys to score with girls and they one we marry is a virgin untouched by another.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Roe Vs. Wade, Abortion, Appeals Court

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users