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Appeals court agrees to rehear Roe V Wade

Roe Vs. Wade Abortion Appeals Court

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#21 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:30 AM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

Delvo what I am trying to get across is that abstience works with willing people.
But isn't that the only way you have abstinence? It's like saying that hopping on one leg works just fine for people who hop on one leg.
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#22 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:38 AM

Drew there are parent who feel put the kid into a barrel and feed them through the hole and if at 18 they are not wahat you want plug the hole.

#23 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:45 AM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 11:23 AM, said:

Is she to have her tubes tied  to enjoy the same act that guys of all ages get to enjoy with no worries of short of being made to pay child  support, Maybe she should just keep her legs closed like they were suppose to in the good old days (Except that was not working even then).
"Even then" the discussion of sexuality was a closed matter, and women were not very informed about their reproductive systems.  The discussion was "don't, or you are bad."  If that's the entirety of the discussion - then sure - it works to some extent, and doesn't in others.

But let's look at this again.  In 2004, are you suggesting that we cannot enact laws stating that men who father children out of wedlock can not be more responsible than hitting their pocketbooks?  Why CAN'T a woman sue for joint custody - meaning the father as well as the mother has to take care of the child? And why are we assuming that men are going to be this irresponsible, and uncaring?  That's quite a slam on men, if you ask me.  

And then there's always adoption, if both parents really just don't want to be bothered, or can't. :(  A host of other strategies can be deployed that don't involve killing an unborn child.

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#24 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:54 AM

True the idea of adopting is there and is viable but to not give the woman the chance to make that choice defeats the purpose in letting her have any say in what happens to her .

I do find it odd that men get to make this choice about women having or not having children when they have the burden of holding the woman's hand or couching her breathing (In short trying to be helpful when the woman is doing the work) yet he is not required to carry the child inside him or feel the pains of the contractions.

As I said a bit if not more than a bit odd.

#25 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 11:57 AM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 11:52 AM, said:

I do find it odd that men get to make this choice about women having or not having children
I'm not a man - and if I had to make the decision, I would decide against "by choice" abortions - limiting abortions to medical necessity.  As I said - I'd also expand the ways in which the interests of the child can be protected after s/he is born, including mandatory paternity tests to secure the father's participation.

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#26 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:06 PM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 10:36 AM, said:

Drew there are parent who feel put the kid into a barrel and feed them through the hole and if at 18 they are not wahat you want plug the hole.
:sarcasm:

Next . . .
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#27 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:17 PM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 20 2004, 04:55 PM, said:

I'm not a man - and if I had to make the decision, I would decide against "by choice" abortions - limiting abortions to medical necessity.  As I said - I'd also expand the ways in which the interests of the child can be protected after s/he is born, including mandatory paternity tests to secure the father's participation.

HM07
Nice it works for you. So who here shall you force to take the same choices you did? Are they unworthy of being allowed the choice. I do not want the power to tell anyone what they must do  unless a law as been broken.

And if the father refuses to pay for the child he did not want and used protection and it failed?  Maybe he used 3 different means and still she got knockled up. It's his fault. Oh wait he's suppose to wait till he's married I keep forgetting silly boy off to the poor house you go. No higher education for you but wait there is this guy who does abortion just down this alley way and he does not even use a coat hanger.

Yes rather than allow people to get procedures done by licenced doctors we can make it so it's only avilible to the folks who can afford it or to those who are willing to take a risk with a less than perfect method. Thenagain take enough pills and the body will abort the child but one too many and you can die .

Excuse me I'll take the method we have now it's not perfect but it's a lot better than it once was. And what might be put in place if it were taken away.

#28 Jid

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:18 PM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

So 93% of abortions are  just repeat customers comming becasue they got knocked up yet again.......and yet again. I somehow suspect that it is not a real number.
Just hopping in with a number for you....

You're right, 93% is not a real number per se.  The real number is that a touch over half of all abortions are had by women (and girls) under the age of 25.  (If you go to 29 or younger, that figure is nearly 75%)

Of these abortions, roughly half are not the woman's (girl's) first abortion.

[Source: CDC "Abortion Surveillance" Report ]
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#29 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:26 PM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 12:15 PM, said:

Nice it works for you. So who here shall you force to take the same choices you did? Are they unworthy of being allowed the choice. I do not want the power to tell anyone what they must do  unless a law as been broken.
The obvious answer: taking a life indiscriminantly is against the law (or should be...)

Quote

And if the father refuses to pay for the child he did not want and used protection and it failed?  Maybe he used 3 different means and still she got knockled up. It's his fault. Oh wait he's suppose to wait till he's married I keep forgetting silly boy off to the poor house you go. No higher education for you but wait there is this guy who does abortion just down this alley way and he does not even use a coat hanger.

Well - I'll just repeat what I said earlier... You are saying you want risk-free sex. That doesn't exist. That's the message that needs to be taught - across the board. Sex is NOT risk free.
~SNIP!
What's really wrong with saying - hey, since unplanned pregnancy and incurable disease is a possible (though slight) consequence of PROTECTED sex, I'll wait until I can have sex with someone with whom I'm prepared to face those consequences?


I'll add - that's not the same thing as saying wait till you're married, although that would be my position as a matter of faith.  Saying I'll wait until I choose someone with whom I'm willing to face these consequences means not being irresponsible.  It means talking with a sexual partner before hand about the possible consequences of the sexual relationship. It means trusting that person to be responsible.  It means knowing enough about them to know that if these issues come up, married or not, you'll work through it together, since both parties created the situation.

That's what's missing in this discussion... a sense of responsibility that takes into account the real responsibilities of entering into a sexual relationship.

HM07

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#30 WildChildCait

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:33 PM

HM07.

yes, I want risk free sex.
i want a world where STD's and unwanted pregnancies don't exist.
Unfortunately, i can't have that.

If you read my  post you will see that I commented that I have practiced abstinence for the last 3+ years.
I am not taking unnecessary risks, I believe, that way.

However, fact remains that if I did for some unfathenable reason have sex without protection, and that goes so against my grain I think I'd have trouble with it in any sitation whatsoever,  but should I do that, there are four things that could happen
1) a great time could be had by all. that's great
2) I could end up with an std.
3) I could end up pregenant
4) option 2+3 combined.
Now of option 2 happens, there are 2 possibilites. 1) it is curable or 2) it is not.
If it is 1, I would go to a doctor and have it cured.
if it was 2, obviously, i couldn't, but we'd do what we could.

option 2 is an undesirable result. Option 3, imho, at current (and I do say at current) is also undesirable.
Now If i accept option 2, and accept I can take action as a result as, why should I accept option 3 as being 'incurable' when I know we have the technology to 'cure' it?

To each their own, but I want hte option. I also want to never have to use it. I also want the option to say no against it. But I want the option.

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#31 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:44 PM

Chaddee, on Feb 20 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

However, fact remains that if I did for some unfathenable reason have sex without protection, and that goes so against my grain I think I'd have trouble with it in any sitation whatsoever,  but should I do that, there are four things that could happen
1) a great time could be had by all. that's great
2) I could end up with an std.
3) I could end up pregenant
4) option 2+3 combined.
Well... I think you'd better add an option 5... 1, 2 & 3 combined... ;)

Quote

Now If i accept option 2, and accept I can take action as a result as, why should I accept option 3 as being 'incurable' when I know we have the technology to 'cure' it?

Well - I hear you.  And if I felt differently about life inside the womb, I'd agree.  But I don't.  I think life deserves life if it can possibly have it without stealing the life of another.  And I don't think that's an optional principle.

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#32 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:50 PM

So you would make it a law forcing others to live their life as you see they need to live it. I thought you were opposed to the state forcing it's will on others?  I mean you want them out of making laws about marriage  You want them making laws allowing for gay marriages. Why those and not this? I thought it was about allowing people to make the chioces of how they live their lives  yet you would be willing to force another to conform to your way of seeing things?

#33 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 12:54 PM

G1223, on Feb 20 2004, 12:48 PM, said:

So you would make it a law forcing others to live their life as you see they need to live it. I thought you were opposed to the state forcing it's will on others?  I mean you want them out of making laws about marriage  You want them making laws allowing for gay marriages. Why those and not this? I thought it was about allowing people to make the chioces of how they live their lives  yet you would be willing to force another to conform to your way of seeing things?
Listen.

If I go to the store and charge up a bunch of stuff with my credit cards I'm going to have mountains of debt.

That might not bug me too much, because I have a job, and can pay my bills.  But if the economy tanks, and through no fault of my own, I no longer have a job, and cannot pay my bills, that doesn't mean that anyone did something bad to me and is forcing me to live a constrained life paying back debts that I owe.  I OWE those debts because I made those bills.  Even if I declared bankruptcy - the seven to ten years of not being able to get new credit is a situation imposed on me deservedly - because I opted out of paying my bills, in exchange for being able to live my life today.

Choice starts before one has sex and continues forward from there.  And choice ends when someone else's rights are being infringed.

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#34 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:44 PM

Quote

The obvious answer: taking a life indiscriminantly is against the law (or should be...)

And this is where a lot of the disagreement comes from. Is a bunch of cells life?  It is potential for life.  In every pregnancy there is a risk at the stage the foetus could be lost.  Terminating a pregnancy at that point isn't killing life to me.  Different religions have different views as to when the soul comes into the body, some think it enters towards the last stages of pregnancy.  Some think at conception.  Fact is we don't know.

What is indiscriminant of knowing that a child would be unwanted, uncared for properly and that the best idea is not to start down that path? (adoption doesn't always work out)  Also having a child is always a risk to the woman, there is a chance she could die in childbirth.  I think a woman should be able to choose if she wants that risk.  Mistakes happen even with the best birth control methods, and not all abortions are done for single women, married women get them too.

I still say if it is at the stage that a miscarriage could happen then it is not a baby yet and the choice to continue or not should be available.  

Also, one of the main problems I see regarding sexual activity is how it is promoted and portrayed on TV.  If young men see women throwing themselves at the men on TV, they will expect that behavior from young women they meet and the women will feel that they have to act that way to get any male attention.  And yet, this issue is being ignored for the most part.  It is an important issue, a very important issue.  I can say from experience I was pressed to have sex when I didn't want to as a teenager because I felt it was the only way to have someone like me, all the other girls were having sex and being a virgin was the worst curse on earth.  I am sure a lot of those attitudes still exist.
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#35 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:52 PM

Quote

Choice starts before one has sex and continues forward from there.  And choice ends when someone else's rights are being infringed.

Unfortunately a majority of the population won't even take responsibility for their trash let alone their choices in having sex or babies.

A lot of women go on welfare that costs everyone money.  A lot of kids grow up with no guidance and turn to gangs and crime and kill each other and innocent people along the way.  

Unwanted kids are a huge problem, making everyone have a baby whether they want to or not is just going to compound it.
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#36 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:57 PM

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

Unfortunately a majority of the population won't even take responsibility for their trash let alone their choices in having sex or babies.

A lot of women go on welfare that costs everyone money.  A lot of kids grow up with no guidance and turn to gangs and crime and kill each other and innocent people along the way. 

Unwanted kids are a huge problem, making everyone have a baby whether they want to or not is just going to compound it.
Perhaps so.  But again - we have a culture that makes that kind of irresponsibility ok - something that we can get away with.

And - the problems you mention - exist with abortion being an option.  I persist in saying that we are constantly creating outs from responsible behavior - and that doesn't help anyone... and children (including the unborn) are always the victims.

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#37 Godeskian

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 01:59 PM

one cannot change decades of behavior easily, nor would most modern youth that i've ever met thank you for telling them that they can't have fun, because make no mistake, for a lot of people, sex isn't about babies, it's about having a good time.

People tend to get cranky when you decide your morality has to take their fun away.

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#38 WildChildCait

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:02 PM

Ah, well, now we get to the crux of hte matter...
I believe it is not life untill it has been felt to move by the mother.
I know that may sound wishy washy, but before that, in ancient rome, woman had the right to abort. After that it was counted as murder. I have adopted that as my own personal standard as I feel it fits. No clue exactly when it starts moving, but there you  have it.

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#39 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:03 PM

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 12:50 PM, said:

Unwanted kids are a huge problem, making everyone have a baby whether they want to or not is just going to compound it.
Unless we start promoting adoption as a legitimate option. Because I know so many people who would love to adopt, but because abortion for an unwanted pregnancy is now the first option in this country, adoption is getting quite difficult. Seems like everyone I know who has adopted, has had to go outside the US.
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#40 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:03 PM

And other just get cranky about anyone else morality having anything to do with them fun or not.

Edited by G1223, 20 February 2004 - 02:11 PM.




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