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Appeals court agrees to rehear Roe V Wade

Roe Vs. Wade Abortion Appeals Court

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#41 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:04 PM

Chaddee, on Feb 20 2004, 01:00 PM, said:

I know that may sound wishy washy, but before that, in ancient rome, woman had the right to abort. After that it was counted as murder.
So, abortion on demand isn't exactly "progress." More like "regress."
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#42 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:05 PM

Quote

Perhaps so. But again - we have a culture that makes that kind of irresponsibility ok - something that we can get away with.

And - the problems you mention - exist with abortion being an option. I persist in saying that we are constantly creating outs from responsible behavior - and that doesn't help anyone... and children (including the unborn) are always the victims.

What you describe is a problem on all levels.  We Americans are taught that the world is our oyster, to be consumed and discarded.   This attitude carries through to the most sacred of acts, creating a new life.

If we could shift this spoiled attitude to the ideal that you are expressing a whole lot of evil that exists would go away.

I try, try, try to work with my stepkids on this attitude, it is like sweeping back the sea when anything I am trying to do gets counted by the crap on TV (yes, I try to stop them watching it, but I can only be the bad guy so much!) or the attitudes of their friends .  I think it is a very bad problem, I wish I knew some answers as to how to turn the tide.  Meanwhile I do the best that I can.

<edited to quote the post I was referring to, man you all are fast>

Edited by GiGi, 20 February 2004 - 02:07 PM.

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#43 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:07 PM

Hey, we have plenty of humans we can go the SPCA route:










Spay or Neuter your human today  :D :D :D

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.  :blush:

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 February 2004 - 02:11 PM.


#44 Rhea

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:08 PM

Uncle Sid, on Feb 19 2004, 11:20 PM, said:

In the slim possiblilty that people actually do the right thing and do outlaw abortions again (except for medical circumstances),
Gee, thanks for making that call for all of us. It might be "the right thing" in your mind, but that doesn't make it the right thing for everyone.
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#45 Godeskian

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:10 PM

and therein lies the rub, who has the better morality,

i somehow doubt either side will ever agree the other side does

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#46 Rhea

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:12 PM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 20 2004, 11:55 AM, said:

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

Unfortunately a majority of the population won't even take responsibility for their trash let alone their choices in having sex or babies.

A lot of women go on welfare that costs everyone money.  A lot of kids grow up with no guidance and turn to gangs and crime and kill each other and innocent people along the way. 

Unwanted kids are a huge problem, making everyone have a baby whether they want to or not is just going to compound it.
Perhaps so.  But again - we have a culture that makes that kind of irresponsibility ok - something that we can get away with.

And - the problems you mention - exist with abortion being an option.  I persist in saying that we are constantly creating outs from responsible behavior - and that doesn't help anyone... and children (including the unborn) are always the victims.

HM07
So what exactly would you suggest, in this most imperfect of worlds? Spaying humans? Making it illegal to have a child out of wedlock? Money for abstinence?

I'm curious, because everything I've heard thus far in this thread is predicated on the idea that self-control can be taught to everyone, an idea that is patently ridiculous.

Edited by Rhea, 20 February 2004 - 02:12 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#47 G1223

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:13 PM

That is why the states laws on this are a mix of compromise and practical consideration.

#48 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:17 PM

Drew, on Feb 20 2004, 11:01 AM, said:

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 12:50 PM, said:

Unwanted kids are a huge problem, making everyone have a baby whether they want to or not is just going to compound it.
Unless we start promoting adoption as a legitimate option. Because I know so many people who would love to adopt, but because abortion for an unwanted pregnancy is now the first option in this country, adoption is getting quite difficult. Seems like everyone I know who has adopted, has had to go outside the US.
I think that is a legitimate option but I am sure their are complexities to that as well, like the ethnicity of the mother/father, the amount of drugs she has perhaps taken that could cause health issues in the child, etc.

I do believe it should be something that is promoted more.  But I don't think it can be the absolute only option.
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#49 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:27 PM

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 01:15 PM, said:

I think that is a legitimate option but I am sure their are complexities to that as well, like the ethnicity of the mother/father, the amount of drugs she has perhaps taken that could cause health issues in the child, etc.
While ethnicity may be a roadblock for some, for those who desperately want children, race is hardly ever a roadblock. Again, almost everyone I know who has adopted has adopted a child of a different race than their own.

As for drugs, surely the mass of women in this country who have abortions are not drug abusers of any kind. They're just like me and you. (Well, not me, seein' as how I ain't got a womb, but you get my meaning. ;) )

To borrow from Jill:

"So unwanted pregnancies, so many people who want to adopt a child . . . "

So you'd think they could do a better job of connecting up.
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#50 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:34 PM

Yes - it is patently ridiculous.  And so long as we determine that we don't have to start somewhere, and so long as we determine that the solution to people not exercising self-control is to create an easy fix so they never have to learn how - it will remain patently ridiculous.

Let's be serious for a minute.  There is no way to teach people the right way to behave but to teach it, and then let people deal with the real consequences of the choices they make.  Of which, an unwanted child may be one of them.  Why does anyone think that this is the end of the world, that women and men might be forced to recognize that they consequences to their actions?

Spaying humans? no - not unless they wanted to do so for themselves. (There's a bit of technology we have that is a cure for unwanted pregnancies... still doesn't make sex risk free, but it cuts the risks down some, without ending someone else's life.)  I wouldn't advocate it, as a matter of faith - but its an option thats available to any and all.  

What I'd recommend I've already said.  I would alter the laws to make it easier for parents to adopt (including single parents), create an infrastructure to track adopted children for the first 5 years of life, make laws that stipulate that both father and mother are responsible for the children they produce, and make laws facilitating child custody arrangements before a child was born - so that a father could gain sole custody of his child if the mother was unwilling to keep the child, or so that both parents could agree to give the child up for adoption.   I'd facilitate grandparent adoption in case of underage kids.  These are the after the fact recommendations.  Before then, I would give financial benefits to television shows and movies that carried a responsible sex message (the way they do with the anti-drug message), modelling through mass media various situations in which people of the age of consent negotiated ahead of time the implications of their consensual acts.  I would teach responsible sex education in schools, which included an understanding of the law on the subject of abortion, and custodial rights.  And I'd do it when kids were about 12, and then again at 14.  I'd make a mandatory civics test as part of a statewide exit exam to graduate high school, and sex education would be a part of it.  

These are the things I'd do to bring about the culture change needed to address the problems.

HM07

Edited by Handmaiden07, 20 February 2004 - 03:09 PM.

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#51 Rhea

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:34 PM

Drew, on Feb 20 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

GiGi, on Feb 20 2004, 01:15 PM, said:

I think that is a legitimate option but I am sure their are complexities to that as well, like the ethnicity of the mother/father, the amount of drugs she has perhaps taken that could cause health issues in the child, etc.
While ethnicity may be a roadblock for some, for those who desperately want children, race is hardly ever a roadblock. Again, almost everyone I know who has adopted has adopted a child of a different race than their own.

As for drugs, surely the mass of women in this country who have abortions are not drug abusers of any kind. They're just like me and you. (Well, not me, seein' as how I ain't got a womb, but you get my meaning. ;) )

To borrow from Jill:

"So unwanted pregnancies, so many people who want to adopt a child . . . "

So you'd think they could do a better job of connecting up.
It's a huge sacrifice emotionally to ask a woman to carry a child for nine months, give birth to that child and then give up the child. A lot of people (me included) couldn't do it. Period. So it's not an option for everyone. Takes a lot of guts.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#52 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 02:42 PM

Rhea, on Feb 20 2004, 01:32 PM, said:

It's a huge sacrifice emotionally to ask a woman to carry a child for nine months, give birth to that child and then give up the child. A lot of people (me included) couldn't do it. Period. So it's not an option for everyone. Takes a lot of guts.
What it really takes is an incredible support system for the mother. As long as people are unwilling to offer that support, she'll always take the easy way out.

If there is a failure here, it's a failure of people to share each other's burdens and help them get through the trials of life. We all share blame for the prevalence of abortion as the easy option.
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#53 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:05 PM

Drew, on Feb 20 2004, 11:40 AM, said:

If there is a failure here, it's a failure of people to share each other's burdens and help them get through the trials of life. We all share blame for the prevalence of abortion as the easy option.
Very, very well put.  In the days before nuclear families was the only way to raise a kid, it was the responsibility of the whole tribe to raise all of the children.
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#54 shambalayogi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:09 PM

Godeskian, on Feb 20 2004, 04:50 AM, said:

wonderfull,

i hope they throw it back out again, despite what the conservatives want, abortion really isn't going to go away, and i'd dread to think of a return to back alley abortions and 'black' medical practices for that purpose
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#55 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:13 PM

I edited my previous post to bold some ideas - it seems to me that a lot of the discussion we are having focus on the mother and her rights, without any regard to the father and his.  Even the adoption option suggests that the father wouldn't want the child or has no say so in the matter.  I think in times past, this was a valid viewpoint, but I don't think men today think that way as much as before - and I think it is entirely possible that a father would want his child, even if the mother didn't.

Does anyone have a sense of this?

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#56 Shalamar

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:21 PM

Okay as an adopted child - me and both of my brother are adotped just fyi...

Meeting the requirement to adopt a child here in the US is an expensive and time consumeing ordeal. It is not in any way EASY, it is not something where you can go down to the local orphanage and point at an infant and say I want that one.  The list to adopt are long, and not due to a shortage of children waiting to be adopted.

I am a grey market baby ( a 1950's private adoption ) my next oldest brother is 10 years younger than I - the reason? - it took most of those ten years to go therough the adoption process.

Most couples want a 'pink and perfect' infant..there are thousands of older children, and worse yet ( in terms of numbers) handicapped/ disabled / special needs children that would love to be adopted.

So plesase do not push the notion that a woman should be force to carry a child  'because some one out there will adopt the child' - that is the cruelest of convient excuses I have ever heard.

And it is hard to adopt here in the US for a reason - yes adoptions often fail - they are just less heard of than the horrosrs that can occur in foster situations.

What the basis of my feelings on the subject of abortions - individual choice - yes I find it appaling that any one would use it as a means of  casual birth control - how ever it should be that womans right.

I believe in her rights over the 'rights' of a bunch of parasitic cells.
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#57 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:23 PM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 20 2004, 02:11 PM, said:

I edited my previous post to bold some ideas - it seems to me that a lot of the discussion we are having focus on the mother and her rights, without any regard to the father and his.  Even the adoption option suggests that the father wouldn't want the child or has no say so in the matter.  I think in times past, this was a valid viewpoint, but I don't think men today think that way as much as before - and I think it is entirely possible that a father would want his child, even if the mother didn't.
What happens when the mother wants to abort and the father wants the baby? I think that most laws on the book allow her to go forward with the abortion regardless of his objections. I hope to be proven wrong about this.
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#58 GiGi

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:24 PM

Thank you Shalamar for your perspective.
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#59 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:25 PM

Shalamar, on Feb 20 2004, 02:19 PM, said:

So plesase do not push the notion that a woman should be force to carry a child  'because some one out there will adopt the child' - that is the cruelest of convient excuses I have ever heard.
Well, obviously laws should change to make adoption easier as well. I mean if, like Bill Clinton, you want abortions "legal, but rare," we need to do all we can to make other options become the first option considered.
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#60 Drew

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 03:27 PM

Shalamar, on Feb 20 2004, 02:19 PM, said:

I believe in her rights over the 'rights' of a bunch of parasitic cells.
Your use of the term "parasitic" really bothers me. I won't go so far as to say that it "offends" me, but I wish you'd have chosen a better way of expressing yourself.

Edited by Drew, 20 February 2004 - 03:27 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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