Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Ralph Nader is running for president

Election 2004 Ralph Nadar

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#21 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:25 PM

Nader is emblematic of a tendency on the American left that drives me absolutely bats***.  Let's call it the notion that politics should be therapy, and that the purpose of casting a vote should be to feel a surge of righteous pride that you've supported someone who thinks exactly the way you do.  And I simply want to smack these people and tell them, guess what folks, you're wrong.  Nobody aside from your pathetic self cares if you vote for a fringe candidate, and in fact by doing so you might actually be helping to elect someone whose ideals are diametrically opposed to yours.  Because politics isn't therapy.  It's about the exercise of power, and the way you exercise power is to elect the people who come closest to representing your priorities and ideals.  And sometimes that means voting for someone who's merely less bad than the other guy.

A corrolary to this idea is the other notion one hears floated by Nader supporters:  the worse, the better.  That is, the only way the Democrats (and by proxy, the American people) will wake up annd pay attention to them, them, them (see what I mean about the therapy part) is for a third party challenger to take enough votes to get a Republican into office and screw everything up.   This idea has, to put it charitably, a checkered past.  Most notably, it was the electoral strategy employed by the German communists in the 1930s when they refused to support the lukewarm socialists in the SPD against the Nazis.  They thought that letting Hitler into office would help them in the long run by showing everyone how bad Hitler was.  Their slogan actually was "after Hitler, us."  And we saw how well that worked out for them.  (and no, I'm not comparing the Republicans to the Nazis...the comparison was for illustrative purposes only)



But back to Nader.  Am I annoyed by his candidacy?  Sure.  Am I worried?  Not really.  By being in there, he allows the Democratic candidate to look more moderate and even provides the opportunity for a "Sister Souljah" moment, a la Clinton in 1992.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#22 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:28 PM

Rhea, on Feb 22 2004, 02:11 PM, said:

Delvo, on Feb 22 2004, 09:07 AM, said:

I don't believe he will suck away votes this time; he's too famous now among liberal voters as the guy who does exactly that.-
I agree with Gordon.
That would be the most interesting guess at my real name I've seen.

#23 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:38 PM

MuseZack, on Feb 22 2004, 02:23 PM, said:

Nader is emblematic of a tendency on the American left that drives me absolutely bats***... politics isn't therapy.  It's about the exercise of power...
It's a tendency that comes and goes at times depending on circumstances, and it happens on both sides. Conservatives were so mad at the first Bush for turning out to be a liberal in disguise that they glommed onto Perot even though the stuff he said was just an incoherent mess that didn't reflect the views of anybody in particular, but which they could, in their desperation, come up with ways to interpret as conservative.

Quote

A corrolary to this idea is the other notion one hears floated by Nader supporters:  the worse, the better.
Another one conservatives are also plagued by... it was said many times both during Clinton's Presidency and before while liberals ran Congress, that surely it was now finally so bad or just about to get so bad in only one more step, finally America would feel the last straw on its back and wake up to what was happening. Nothing changed.

#24 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:19 AM

Well, at least we can laugh about it. Here's a cartoon from Slate:

EDIT: The link doesn't refer to that cartoon anymore. Darn

Edited by Kevin Street, 24 February 2004 - 04:00 PM.


#25 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 23 February 2004 - 06:25 PM

Delvo, on Feb 22 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

Rhea, on Feb 22 2004, 02:11 PM, said:

Delvo, on Feb 22 2004, 09:07 AM, said:

I don't believe he will suck away votes this time; he's too famous now among liberal voters as the guy who does exactly that.-
I agree with Gordon.
That would be the most interesting guess at my real name I've seen.
Oopsie.  :blush:  I thought I was agreeing with G1223, but I'll agree with you instead, Delvo.  :p
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#26 prolog

prolog

    The Merry Programmer

  • Islander
  • 1,062 posts

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:52 PM

The two North American electoral systems need to be changed so we can partially eliminate all this "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush"-type stuff.  The basic problem is that first-past-the-post systems encourage duopolies.  Even in Canada, though we have four major political parties, only two have ever been elected and will ever be elected (sorry, NDP).  It shouldn't have to be that way.  I'll take PR over FPTP, even with the associated disadvantages that it brings.

#27 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:55 PM

prolog, on Feb 24 2004, 02:50 PM, said:

The two North American electoral systems need to be changed so we can partially eliminate all this "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush"-type stuff.
What would you propose?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#28 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:05 PM

I believe prolog is referring to Proportional Representation. Here's a good link:

PR Library: Readings In Proportional Representation

#29 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:15 PM

Kevin Street, on Feb 24 2004, 03:03 PM, said:

I believe prolog is referring to Proportional Representation. Here's a good link:

PR Library: Readings In Proportional Representation
Interesting. I'll have to look more closely. However, if you think people had problems with the Butterfly Ballot, just wait until they try to understand this!
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Election 2004, Ralph Nadar

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users