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Not so fast on Same Sex marriages

LGBT Bush Same sex marriage ban

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#101 Drew

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 09:22 AM

Oh, and Blah Blah Blah Blah continuing to compare this to racial discrimination is really annoying me. But you know how I feel, so I'll just sit over here and glower menacingly.  :cool:
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#102 Drew

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 09:24 AM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 26 2004, 07:56 AM, said:

In response to the persistent refrain that what happened in San Francisco has some comparison to the civil rights struggle of African-Americans, I offer the following quote:

Quote

"In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law ... That would lead to anarchy. An individual who breaks a law that his conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." --Martin Luther King, Jr.

A government official breaking the law with no real fear of reprisal, and plenty to gain, is, in my humble opinion, not on the same moral ground at all.  This isn't commentary about the rightness or wrongness of the cause - this is commentary on the move in support of the cause.

HM07
Or, "what she said."  :cool:
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#103 Drew

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 09:29 AM

Ro-Astarte, on Feb 26 2004, 01:52 AM, said:

This quote from Gandhi cheered me up immensely:

Quote

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
A friend of mine once told me "So what if the meek inherit the earth. They're just a bunch of meeks! We'll take it right back!"  :cool:

The Gandhi quote is a bit naive and assumes that one's opponents have some sort of moral sense. They were opposing the British after all. Such a tactic wouldn't work against an opponent who sought your complete and utter destruction.

Okay, back on tangent . . .
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#104 G1223

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 09:45 AM

MuseZack, on Feb 26 2004, 06:37 AM, said:

So am I to understand it that an elected official defying the law of the land is always a bad thing?




Or what if a mayor in 1942 decided to defy the lawful federal order to send Japanese Americans to internment camps?

Does written law always take precedence over morality?  Always?
Zack in 1942 the Invasion panic along the west coast was at such a high point that such a mayor would have been arrested (at least and worse injured if not killed).
There were a few times people were endangered by locals firing at planes either at night or due to no understanding of what side the airplanes were on.

Your example would  compare to:
That would be like Captain Smith refusing to launch the Titanic's lifeboats till everyone was on deck and he could have it then proceed in an orderly manner. Starting with the first class passangers and so on.

#105 LJW

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 10:41 AM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 26 2004, 07:56 AM, said:

In response to the persistent refrain that what happened in San Francisco has some comparison to the civil rights struggle of African-Americans, I offer the following quote:

Quote

"In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law ... That would lead to anarchy. An individual who breaks a law that his conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." --Martin Luther King, Jr.

A government official breaking the law with no real fear of reprisal, and plenty to gain, is, in my humble opinion, not on the same moral ground at all.  This isn't commentary about the rightness or wrongness of the cause - this is commentary on the move in support of the cause.

HM07
I couldn't have said it better.  Kudos!!!

Comparing the fight for Gay marriage to the Civil Rights struggle is apples to oranges.  It minimizes what Dr. King was about and did.  There is a huge difference between African Americans being treated like animals (beaten or killed for looking at a white woman) vs Gays wanting the "government benefits" of civil union.  Tax breaks, the right to divorce, child custody just doesn't seem to compare.  IMHO

eta:  Do you think this mayor is willing to take a bullet for this cause as Dr. King did?

Edited by LJW, 26 February 2004 - 10:42 AM.


#106 Norville

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 11:37 AM

Quote

A friend of mine once told me "So what if the meek inherit the earth. They're just a bunch of meeks! We'll take it right back!" :cool:

I've also heard the variation in science fiction fandom: "The meek will inherit the earth. The rest of us are going to the stars." If only we could. :wideeyed:

Edited by Norville, 26 February 2004 - 11:38 AM.

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#107 GiGi

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:06 PM

Drew, on Feb 26 2004, 06:15 AM, said:

GiGi, on Feb 25 2004, 10:30 PM, said:

This not like someone bombed a city and killed babies. [mumble] dubya [/mumble]
Ok, thanks for making sure that the stereotype of the knee-jerk Bush-hater is alive and well.

And just when I was about to admit that some of you were reasonable people . . .  :p  I loves ya GiGi, but really . . .
Okay, that was going too far in this conversation. But the administation did bomb cities killing many innocent children.  When that happens it is not called criminal it is called "the price of war"

When the mayor gives permission for loving couples to join together as families and in this thread he is called a criminal that should be put in jail, well, it kind of pushed me too far.

Apologies for opening old wounds.

Drew, I loves ya too.  {{{{Drew}}}}
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#108 Drew

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:55 PM

You know, I just read that some demonstrators appeared at the courthouse to block the door in opposition to these "marriages." They were immediately arrested. What's wrong with this picture?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#109 GiGi

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 02:14 PM

If they were just standing around, that is overkill.  So it depends on what they were doing.  A lot of anti-war protesters were arrested because they were out of control.

I went to the Chronicle's site to see if there was a story on this yet, there wasn't but I did find this -

Rosie O'Donnell to marry girlfriend in San Francisco

Quote

She said the president's call is what inspired her to come to San Francisco, where city officials continue to perform same-sex weddings even as state courts are considering the legality of those marriages.

"I think the actions of the president are, in my opinion, the most vile and hateful words ever spoken by a sitting president," O'Donnell said on the program. "I am stunned and I'm horrified.

"I find this proposed amendment very, very, very, very shocking. And immoral. And, you know, if civil disobedience is the way to go about change, then I think a lot of people will be going to San Francisco. And I hope they put more people on the steps to marry as many people as show up. And I hope everyone shows up."

Edited by GiGi, 26 February 2004 - 02:21 PM.

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#110 Drew

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 02:19 PM

I guess what I was thinking, GiGi, is that if they were blocking the door to the courthouse, they probably did deserve to be arrested. But then we have two kinds of civil disobedience going on, but only one kind resulting in arrests.

Edited by Drew, 26 February 2004 - 02:19 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#111 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 03:17 PM

Quote

Yeah, I'm not gay, but that doesn't mean I lack the ability to make qualitative and quantitative comparisons. I don't have to be a slave to know that that is something I wouldn't want to deal with, and I don't have to be a drug addict to know that I'm not going to be interested in that sort of lifestyle. I don't see why I need to be gay to intellgently discuss gay marriage.
\

I'm having rather a packed day, so I'm not able to post full response to this and the other posts.  

I do however just want to apologize if it seemed to you like I was dismissing your right to engage in the discussion.  Not my intention at all, and I can see how it seemed that way.

For a fuller response on why I think it is a civil rights issue, I'll have to come back later.

Ro

#112 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 08:39 PM

Comparing the Mayor of SF to MLK, Gandhi, ect is BULLS**T, IMO.

As others have pointed out...He's an elected official. That changes everything. Can't remember the guy's name, who got convicted of manslaughter for hitting somebody with his car and killing them. He claimed he had a diabetic reaction I think. He broke the law, and is now dealing with it.

Someone else already mentioned the elected official who got caught driving while impared...I'm sure she'll be facing charges as well.

And don't even get me started on the media circus with Clinton...all that boy did was lie, which IIRC *isn't* a crime...yet there was talk of impeaching. All because he had sex with a woman other then his wife.

Now we have the Mayor of SF grandstanding, openly breaking the law, in effect saying that the Constitution of California can go frell itself...It's his way or the highway, and NOTHING is being done.

Don't get me wrong. I think people, whether gay or straight, should marry whomever they choose. That doesn't excuse this mayor of breaking the law though. If they were willing to impeach Clinton for a blowjob, then at the very least this Mayor should loose his job.

This, IMO, is no different then a parent strapping explosives to their chest, and demanding that their child who was convicted of a crime be given his freedom....The only difference being, the Mayor used a political bomb as oppossed to a real one.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#113 HubcapDave

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 08:44 PM

^Um, Lord, I want to just point out one small thing. It was that Clinton lied about it under oath that got him impeached.

Other than that, you make a fine point!

#114 GiGi

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 08:48 PM

LotS, looks like this is becoming a trend...

Village mayor in New York state says he'll marry gay couples

Quote

The 26-year-old mayor of a progressive college village in the Hudson Valley says he'll begin performing gay marriages Friday, calling it "my moral obligation."

New Paltz Mayor Jason West, who won office last year on the Green Party line, said he intends to marry at least four same-sex couples at a private bed and breakfast. The move could make this village 75 miles north of New York City another flash point in the national debate over gay marriage.

"We as a society have no right to discriminate in marriage any more than we have the right to discriminate when someone votes or when someone wants to hold office," West said in a telephone interview Thursday.

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#115 imzzadi

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 10:00 PM

GiGi, on Feb 26 2004, 04:12 PM, said:

Rosie O'Donnell to marry girlfriend in San Francisco

Quote

She said the president's call is what inspired her to come to San Francisco, where city officials continue to perform same-sex weddings even as state courts are considering the legality of those marriages.

"I think the actions of the president are, in my opinion, the most vile and hateful words ever spoken by a sitting president," O'Donnell said on the program. "I am stunned and I'm horrified.

"I find this proposed amendment very, very, very, very shocking. And immoral. And, you know, if civil disobedience is the way to go about change, then I think a lot of people will be going to San Francisco. And I hope they put more people on the steps to marry as many people as show up. And I hope everyone shows up."
Rosie did it and made the Canadian evening news tonight.  It was the first time I've heard the SF marriages mentioned on our news.  Good on her!
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#116 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 04:10 AM

HubcapDave, on Feb 26 2004, 08:42 PM, said:

^Um, Lord, I want to just point out one small thing. It was that Clinton lied about it under oath that got him impeached.

Other than that, you make a fine point!
Was he under oath at the time? I thought he had just given a press conference. If he was under oath and lied, yes that definately changes things.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#117 Delvo

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 04:25 AM

Plus, not all of the 11 impeachable offenses found were related to that case. Congress only took up the 4 that were because that way it would be easier to pretend it didn't matter because it was "all just about sex".



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