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Not so fast on Same Sex marriages

LGBT Bush Same sex marriage ban

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#21 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:39 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Feb 24 2004, 03:28 PM, said:

Please. Even assuming Bush could get every republican congressman behind the effort-- which he can't, in part due to the log cabin republicans-- it wouldn't be enough. It would die there.
I think you are failing to see that Bush just rolled a nuclear grenade into the middle of the Democrats.  Donít underestimate what a vicious kick this will be in terms of splitting the Democrats among themselves.  The Democrats are in trouble either way they go voting for or against and this one is going to split that party down the center if anything more so than the Republicans.  

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Rov: Even if he could, there simply aren't that many state legislatures with the political motivation to get it through.

I beg to differ.  Over thirty-eight of them have passed laws outlawing gay marriage.  That alone says something.  In addition this issue is going to be pressed right on because now it has become something much more than an issue of gay marriage.  It has gotten right into the clash between judicial activism, federalism, and local authority.  You have the three biggest long trends in American Constitutionalism at work here and that is going to drive many.  

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Rov:  Heck, the relatively non-controversial, "Men and women are equal" couldn't get passed; this is far more contentious.

Contention and controversy isnít always something that stops something sometimes it shoves it right down the center.  Those types of backlashes over controversial issues occur quite often.
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#22 Drew

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:49 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Feb 24 2004, 02:28 PM, said:

Heck, the relatively non-controversial, "Men and women are equal" couldn't get passed; . . .
Some would say that because the issue caused such a change in the public conscious, it no longer needed to be passed.
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#23 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 05:10 PM

Drew, on Feb 24 2004, 02:29 PM, said:

Ah, the good ol' ACLU, . . . Johnny-on-the-spot if it's perceived as a lefty issue . . . quite deaf if it's not.  :wacko:
I understand how you feel, Drew.  How could anyone but a kneejerk liberal support the following positions? :sarcasm:

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#24 Drew

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 05:19 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Feb 24 2004, 04:08 PM, said:

Drew, on Feb 24 2004, 02:29 PM, said:

Ah, the good ol' ACLU, . . . Johnny-on-the-spot if it's perceived as a lefty issue . . . quite deaf if it's not.† :wacko:
I understand how you feel, Drew.
Oh, no you don't. But thanks anyway.  :cool:
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#25 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 05:34 PM

Hey, you cut off the best part.

Quote

:sarcasm:

Ro

#26 JadziaDax

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 05:39 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Feb 24 2004, 03:37 PM, said:

I think you are failing to see that Bush just rolled a nuclear grenade into the middle of the Democrats.  Don?t underestimate what a vicious kick this will be in terms of splitting the Democrats among themselves.  The Democrats are in trouble either way they go voting for or against and this one is going to split that party down the center if anything more so than the Republicans.
You have no idea how incredibally sad this statement makes me.

I despratly want Bush out of the whitehouse...so much I'm going to drop out of ROTC and move to another country if he wins again.
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#27 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:10 PM

That  nuclear grenade could have some blowback as well.

Not all Republicans are counted among the radical religious right (and I believe amending the Constitution for this purpose can justifiably be termed "radical").

There are even gay Republicans who certainly find it objectionable.

And, here's a not-so-surprising possible motive for this move. Yes, it's political.

Ro

#28 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:43 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Feb 24 2004, 06:08 PM, said:

That  nuclear grenade could have some blowback as well.

Not all Republicans are counted among the radical religious right
Yes but one has to remember not all Democrats are going to be supporters of gay marriage.  This is going to smack both sides hard but I think it is going to smack back on the Democrats harder.  

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Ro: (and I believe amending the Constitution for this purpose can justifiably be termed "radical").

Remember that radicalism is in the eye of the beholder.  Some Iím sure see the actions in SF and Massachusetts as being just as radical as amending the Constitution.  It is just this type of radicalism on both sides on this issue that is going to screw both of them down the road.
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#29 MuseZack

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:56 PM

JadziaDax, on Feb 24 2004, 10:37 PM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Feb 24 2004, 03:37 PM, said:

I think you are failing to see that Bush just rolled a nuclear grenade into the middle of the Democrats.  Don?t underestimate what a vicious kick this will be in terms of splitting the Democrats among themselves.  The Democrats are in trouble either way they go voting for or against and this one is going to split that party down the center if anything more so than the Republicans.
You have no idea how incredibally sad this statement makes me.
What does it say when Tom freakin' DeLay thinks amending the Constitution over this issue is a bit hasty?



House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said he appreciated Bush's "moral leadership" on the issue, but expressed caution about moving too quickly toward a constitutional solution, and never directly supported one. "This is so important we're not going to take a knee-jerk reaction to this," Delay said. "We are going to look at our options and we are going to be deliberative about what solutions we may suggest."  


As for this being a political plus, here's the incomparable Josh Marshall on the subject.  His take is that it's a sign of weakness rather than strength:

http://www.talkingpo..._22.html#002600

We should also note a few things about what this means about the president.  
The White House didn't want to have the president out last night making a slashing campaign speech in late February.  They also didn't want to start hitting the airwaves this early with their campaign commercials.  And they definitely did not want the president jumping off the high dive into a gay rights culture war.
The strategy was to bank the president's rock solid support from Republicans and spend the year above the political fray with soft sounding proposals aimed at the political middle.  
But it hasn't worked out that way.  
The support among conservatives has taken some real hits.  The White House has decided that the long-predicted rising economy won't float them through this election.  The situation in Iraq looks wobbly and likely to get worse before it gets better.  So deprived of the ability to run on his record he's decided to save his political hide by trying to tear the country apart over a charged and divisive social issue which is being hashed out through the political process in the states.
It's his dad and the flag burning amendment all over again.  Is there really anything that tells you more about a man's character than this?
A couple weeks ago I said we should be on the look out for stuff like this -- not just the move on gay marriage, but the whole descent into scurrilous attacks and divisive wedge politics as the president's popularity drifts downward.  (Isn't the White House a bit worried that their line about the Democrats being negative and haters will be a little undermined by these tactics on their part?)

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#30 emsparks

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:06 PM

I will say this: As much as I love this country, Iím ashamed of her. I pray to God that this man is not reelected, and his constructional amendment is soundly defected.

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#31 G1223

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:15 PM

The problems is as I have said before is that  the people supporting the issue are pushing people too hard,too fast.  With the resualt that while a number of folks in the middle understand  They are being pushed to make these changes right now  no delay no debate no willingness to let the issue be resolved over time and no voting about the issue.

#32 emsparks

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:50 PM

ďIf not now when, if not us who?Ē

What we are talking about is solid science verses miss interpreted scripture. Most of the so-called faithful, havenít read their bible, as the good book itís self says they should, allowing others to interpret it for them. To continue to treat the gay community as second-class citizens is scientifically and morally inhumane. Did you know that on CNN the Rev. Fallwell said if we allow same sex marriages, that pedophilia is next.

What really twist my tail is the Gay activist the media put up against people like Fallwell, canít argue either the bible or the science. Boy Talk about a set up to keep this issue as divisive as possible, and sell newspapers. But then why heal a nation when you can sell newsprint.

I canít read and I have taken great pains to read the Old Testament cover to cover.

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Edited by emsparks, 24 February 2004 - 07:56 PM.

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#33 Drew

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 08:10 PM

emsparks, on Feb 24 2004, 06:48 PM, said:

Did you know that on CNN the Rev. Fallwell said if we allow same sex marriages, that pedophilia is next.
Oh, who cares what Falwell thinks. The damned media is always quick to go to him for a soundbite, and he's so happy to oblige . . . damn it, the media seem to think he's the Evangelical Pope or something. I think Falwell and the Media need a quick divorce.
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#34 emsparks

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 09:02 PM

In school I was taught that ultimately the news media was about the truth. AND it was until the 1980ís Itís not the only lie I was told in school, and those lies are standing on the throat of my country. Still no one does their homeworkÖ.

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Edited by emsparks, 24 February 2004 - 09:04 PM.

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#35 Rhea

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 11:34 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Feb 24 2004, 01:28 PM, said:

Good point Dave.

CJ:

Quote

I think you are being far to hasty stating that Rov. Getting it out of the Congress might not be possible for Bush but once among the states I could see it being ratified.

Please. Even assuming Bush could get every republican congressman behind the effort-- which he can't, in part due to the log cabin republicans-- it wouldn't be enough. It would die there. Even if he could, there simply aren't that many state legislatures with the political motivation to get it through. Heck, the relatively non-controversial, "Men and women are equal" couldn't get passed; this is far more contentious.  If Bush can get this through, it would be a completely shocking turn of events. I've underestimated him before-- particularly in the 2002 elections-- but I don't think he can do it. Maybe he'll surprise the hell out of everybody, but I think not.
Rov's right. I'm too tired to go looking for the link tonight, but several Republican representatives have already spoken out against it. The general concensus seems to be that it ought to be up to the state to decide.
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#36 Godeskian

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:06 AM

Quote

"We're in the process right now of judges and vigilantes -- people taking justice into their own hands and deciding to change the law without either the courts or the legislature acting," said Republican Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania.

He was referring a ruling by Massachusetts' highest court directing the state Legislature to allow same-sex marriages and the decision by San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

I hope that someone points out to mr. Santorum that saying no one goes to the courts to change a law over and issues where it was a court that said same-sex marrigages was okay is just a wee bit silly.

not to mention paradoxical

for those of you on the ground int he US, what's your take on the grass roots reaction to the gay marriages in SanFran and the massechusets ruling?

Edited by Godeskian, 25 February 2004 - 01:51 AM.

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#37 Delvo

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:47 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Feb 24 2004, 05:41 PM, said:

Some Iím sure see the actions in SF and Massachusetts as being just as radical as amending the Constitution.
If you mean seeing all of the above as radical, not just one "side" or the other, I'm one of those people.

#38 Delvo

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:50 AM

emsparks, on Feb 24 2004, 06:48 PM, said:

To continue to treat the gay community as second-class citizens is scientifically and morally inhumane.
Every time I'm just about ready to join the pro-gay side on this, I see one of their advocates pull out something like this to push me back away again. "Second-class citizens"? Get real.

Edited by Delvo, 25 February 2004 - 09:49 PM.


#39 Shalamar

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:37 AM

Delvo, as some one who was born in to a gender that for centuries were treated as 'second class' citizens, I can understand their feelings.

It is a very real and valid feeling Delvo and to say that it is not is just wrong, or so I believe
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#40 HubcapDave

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:16 PM

^And so the thread starts to disintegrate here.

Just thought I'd put up a warning post.



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