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Remember those 'actor' firefighters?

Election 2004 Bush Actor Firefighters Campaign ad

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#21 G1223

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:08 AM

CH  nice smear at Bush for doing exactly what any President ( Prime Minister, Premire,or whatever) is suppose to do in a climate of concern that an Assassin might just attack the White House. he gets into Air Force One ( It's called a Mobile Command Post) Where he tries to get info of what is happening and gets the advice of his cabinet and military leaders And then makes the call.

#22 Nikcara

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:57 AM

If I recall correctly, the Queen stayed in London during the London Blitz.  She was brave, and that helped her rally the British during bleak times.  G.W., for whatever points he has, did not show any bravery as far as I'm concerned during 9/11.  No matter what you're going to tell me he did about 9/11 it was NOTHING compared the rescue workers as far as personal sacriface
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#23 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:03 PM

^ Not quite a fair comparison. The queen is the titular, but not the acting, head of state. The British monarchy could've spent the Blitz standing out front of Buckingham Palace mooning the Luftwaffe every night. As long as Sir Winston Churchill and the Parliament are in a secured location.... who cares?

Now, if you were to raise the example of Abraham Lincoln, who "damn near got his fool head blown off" (to quote Oliver Wendell Holmes) going in person to the battle of Monocacy.... that might follow.

But really, when the capital is potentially under attack, it's either a stupid president or a foolish president who stays put in the White House. Either way, the nation suffers if that foolish/stupid president is dead for his courageous stand.

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#24 Nikcara

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:11 PM

I do see your point, which is why I wasn't calling him a coward.  I was just saying he didn't do anything I see as brave or selfless.  
The rescue workers, on the other hand, were heroes.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#25 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:20 PM

^ I'm not disagreeing with you at all about the rescue workers....

....but he *did* lead the country. I don't know how you can quantify courage when it comes to the President's office, but, I mean, he didn't nuke anyone. He ordered a limited offensive against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. He did a fairly good job rallying America around him --even those who didn't particularly like him-- and he did inspire a bit of confidence in the office of the President.

Yeah, maybe that whole "axis of evil", "we need to take out Iraq now" follow-up cost him, but *at the time*, on the day and thereafter, he followed procedures and he did a fairly decent job of taking responsibility for what had to be done next.

What could he have done to inspire courage other than what he did? I'm curious as to what you think.

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#26 Lover of Purple

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:20 PM

I also don't see anything here where President Bush is saying he is a hero. Yeah, he has firemen in his ad, but I see it also as a way to honor the REAL heroes again and yes it should help him. I see nothing wrong with that (from either candidate). What I do see is anytime that President Bush uses something that points to his handling of 9/11, people that don't like him scream heis using someone. I just can't see it that way. But then again, I'm not always looking for something wrong with a person.

*shrug* Just me I guess. :)

#27 Shalamar

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:34 PM

The president did exactly what he - and the USSS - had to do.  When something like 911 happens he is not inchagre of his own safety and his wishes are listened to but not necessarily heeded. His personal bravery should never be a point in a situation like this. He had a job to do and getting himself killed is NOT doing that job.

His being there would just have hampered rescue efforts. NO ONE has looked at the fact that the POTUS being at the alreeady over crowed, chaotic site would have hampered rescue efforts..


When 911 occured Bush wasn't even in Washinton DC, he was in Floridia, and his security detail hustled hhim aboard Air FOrce One.  If they had taken him to New York, with still unindetified threats still possibly airborne and ongoing they would have been the ones placeing him in greater danger.

Those who rushed in to harms way or gave blood, or comforted the dieing, or died themselves staying with trapped victims, are the heroes, very much so and deserve all the accolades and respect we can give them.
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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:00 PM

G1223, on Mar 18 2004, 05:06 PM, said:

CH  nice smear at Bush for doing exactly what any President ( Prime Minister, Premire,or whatever) is suppose to do in a climate of concern that an Assassin might just attack the White House. he gets into Air Force One ( It's called a Mobile Command Post) Where he tries to get info of what is happening and gets the advice of his cabinet and military leaders And then makes the call.
see it any way you want,

As far as continuation fo goverment is concerned, you don't need Bush for that, that's what you have a vice president for, and a cabinet, and two houses of parliament.

Goverment would have continued without George W.

Edited by Cyberhippie, 18 March 2004 - 01:01 PM.

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:01 PM

Shalamar, on Mar 18 2004, 06:32 PM, said:

The president did exactly what he - and the USSS - had to do.
I'm sure he did.

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#30 Rov Judicata

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:09 PM

Cyberhippie, on Mar 18 2004, 10:58 AM, said:

AS far as continuation fo goverment is concerned, you don't need Bush for that, that's what you have a vice president for, and a cabinet, and two houses of parliament.

Goverment would have continued without George W.
Yes, it would have.

But the president is not expendable, except under truly dire circumstances. The risk would have been incredibly high, and there's ultimately very little Bush could have done to help on the scene. The risk/reward equation is simply skewed.
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#31 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:13 PM

Cheney? for president? no thanks. Speaking purely personally I would only pray for two things (assuming i prayed at all) that Bush survives to the end of his presidency (either now or in 8 years) or that whatever kills him takes cheney out as well.

a slight shift of topic, and maybe it's my own perception, but as long as either the prez or the VP is safe, does it really matter what the other is doing? I mean, presumably Cheney is up to date with bush's intentions and policies to be able to take over if he dies for wahtever reason, and if cheney dies, i would assume all Bush has to do is select a new VP?

#32 QueenTiye

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:17 PM

CH - your position is interesting.  I'd like to wonder how we would have felt to have the president killed on 9/11, and how the Taliban would have felt?  At a totally demoralizing time, your position seems to be that we should have been more demoralized.

Your position is also disengenuous.  The procedure stipulating what the president does and what the vice president does in times like this were created so that these decisions didn't have to be made in times like this.  And so that a defiant, angry president doesn't do something as stupid as what you propose, in the heat of the moment.

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#33 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:21 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Mar 18 2004, 11:07 AM, said:

But the president is not expendable, except under truly dire circumstances. The risk would have been incredibly high, and there's ultimately very little Bush could have done to help on the scene. The risk/reward equation is simply skewed.
<And if Europe hates Bush, I can only imagine how they would react to a Cheney presidency...>.
A Cheney Presidency??? :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:

Get into your bomb shelters, boys and girls. There's a new President in town, and he's got nothin' to lose! :alien:

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Edited by Kevin Street, 18 March 2004 - 01:23 PM.

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#34 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:21 PM

The person of the President is never expendable--- even if you don't like the guy, popular morale has always suffered when a President has been targeted by an assassin of any sort. The American people don't take lightly to talk of their Presidents being targets. With good reason.

More to the point, however, even if something did happen to President Bush, swearing in President Cheney doesn't mean business as usual. I'm sure President Lyndon B. Johnson knew everything President Kennedy wanted done. Doesn't mean he did it. Same with President Andrew Johnson when President Lincoln was assassinated. Or whoever McKinley's vice-president was (I don't even remember). There was a fourth President that was assassinated --possibly Grover Cleveland-- but I can't recall.

And going further than that, if the Speaker of the House (I think it's Hastert right now, isn't it?) were to become President, or even the Secretary of State becomes President, due to some tragic horror befalling the rest of the chain of succession, they still are not the same person. Thus, their agendas will differ. And, of course, their first matter of business will be to inspire the American people to trust them as the President, in the office that they probably never wanted to succeed to in the manner they did-- over the dead body of someone else.

Nobody wants that kind of promotion.

:cool:

Edited by the 'Hawk, 18 March 2004 - 01:22 PM.

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#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:25 PM

the'Hawk, on Mar 16 2004, 08:53 AM, said:

^ Would "I told you so" also be a legitimate political issue?

How about "I know you are, but what am I?"

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#36 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:30 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 18 2004, 01:23 PM, said:

'Hawk have I told you lately how much I love you????
Can't get enough of that Lil-lovin' stuff....  :love:

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#37 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:34 PM

Quote

CH - your position is interesting.  I'd like to wonder how we would have felt to have the president killed on 9/11, and how the Taliban would have felt?  At a totally demoralizing time, your position seems to be that we should have been more demoralized.

blink

blinkblink  :unsure:

so not where I was going with that. And please note, by the time Bush arrived wherever he was being evacuated to it was all over. The planes had either hit or crashed and to the best of my knowledge there were no other attacks in New York any time after that, so how would him being there, being visible as president there with his people during a disaster have been such a problem?

Even if he waited a day, or two days, he still could have been seen to have been with his people, rather than sitting in a nice bombproof shelter.

Quote

Your position is also disengenuous

okay

Quote

And so that a defiant, angry president doesn't do something as stupid as what you propose, in the heat of the moment.

then i guess there were an awfull lot of stupid people who flocked to New York to help. People of no particular note or capability but who were 'stupid' and wanted to help.

I've just always felt i'd respect Bush more if he'd made some effort to seem the same way, because making a broadcast from a secure bunker didn't feel that way.

I'll understand that there was every good legal reason why he did what he did, and please note, I already acknowledged that point to Shal.

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#38 eryn

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:39 PM

Cyberhippie, on Mar 18 2004, 11:32 AM, said:

so not where I was going with that. And please note, by the time Bush arrived wherever he was being evacuated to it was all over. The planes had either hit or crashed and to the best of my knowledge there were no other attacks in New York any time after that, so how would him being there, being visible as president there with his people during a disaster have been such a problem?

Even if he waited a day, or two days, he still could have been seen to have been with his people, rather than sitting in a nice bombproof shelter.
Well that is easy to say in hindsight since we know now that there weren't any other attacks, but the USSS didn't know right then that there weren't any other attacks being planned for the near future.

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Edited by mystic, 18 March 2004 - 01:40 PM.

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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:41 PM

I suppose. and yet, a lot of people, some of them fairly important did go to New York, and were seen to help.

Defy Gravity!


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#40 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 01:41 PM

^ And --again-- it's their job to treat the person of the President differently precisely because of what he symbolizes to the American people.

Can we go around in some more circles? This is fun!

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