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School children plan murder

Children Violence Schools Montana 2004

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#21 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:10 AM

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The kids who did the planning need to have the full attention of the law.

The parents of these children need to be checked six ways to sunday with an exam that would make a ruthless auditor of the IRS proud and the scope and reach.

Absolutely agree.

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The Child who did the teasing? Needs talked with and punishjed if there is indeed a bullying aspect to their behavior. This Child's parents? I think is a bit reaching.

She needs more then a talking to, IMO. Perhaps counseling...As for the parents. I don't think it's a stretch at all. Where do you think she learned it's ok to tease others?

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As to the gun the question would be how accessible was it. laid out under a bed or in a shoe box and placed on the floor of a closet yeah then it was easily accessable. But if it was placed in a locked box and the kid got hold of the key or a gun safe or even just a reasonably secured gun cabinet I'd question the parents being charged with wreckless behavior.

Again, I agree completely.

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If this were a day to day thing I'd agree we have a dire problem but this is a group of kids a total of four who got out of control. I agree it merits great deals attention at least the action of the three who plotted to kill the fourth. But realize kids get through this and worse (The drug dealing friend and saying no to an offer of a free try)and come out alright.

I get the impression that it was a daily occurance. If it was only one time, I seriously doubt they would've planned to kill her. The mere fact that they did, IMO, tells me it's happened before, probably everyday.

Don't get me wrong, what they planned was wrong, and they do need to be dealt with by the law. However, the child doing the teasing, IMO, is the trigger for the event. Some people, like this girl, seem to think it's ok to do whatever they please and there are no consequences...such is far from true.

Next time she teases someone, and that person has decided he, or she, has had enough of it...they might not discover it until the girl doing the teasing has a bullet in her brain.

What also bothers me is that people in general tend to view the bully, as in this girl, as innocent victims. They don't seem to realize that if not for the bully, the tragedy wouldn't have happened.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#22 G1223

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:17 AM

I can see that conculsion but I can also see we do not have the actions of teasing explained with any detail.

As to the parents they likely have not told her that it's ok but the child's friends at school might have.

#23 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:47 AM

I think those who assume "teasing" to mean "bullying" based solely on the information in this story are jumping to rather extravagant conclusions.  

Like many of you I was subject to some teasing in school, as well as the occasional bully. There's a difference.

I do agree that too often conflicts in school are ignored and that our children (and a lot of adults) need to be taught how to resolve conflicts before they escalate to violence. There are several organizations working to do that.


Victory over Violence  is one that I have personal knowledge of.

The program has gone into schools in many communities to address just the sort of thing we're talking about. Giving kids tools to solve conflict without resorting to violence. There are giveaway materials, exercises, and outreach programs in communities all across the US.

From the intro to the site:

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Victory Over Violence (VOV) is a youth-sponsored initiative to help young people identify and counteract the root causes of violence in their lives and in their communities. VOV outreach programs began in 1999 as a response to growing concerns over the rise in youth-related violence..

The best time to deal with violence is before it comes to the crisis moment. That's what the VOV program is working to do.

End PSA.  :whistle:

Ro

#24 Dev F

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:53 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Mar 19 2004, 10:30 AM, said:

The girl who teased them is also at fault, as are her parents and the school teachers. The girl's parent should've taught her better social skills, and that teasing or picking on people is wrong. And where the frell were the school teachers while this was happening?

I'm not trying to condone what these kids were planning, but there is only so much teasing/bullying, ect that a person can take. Sooner or later they will reach their breaking point, and when that happens...It usually is violent.

All the rage, anger, feelings of helplessness come boiling to a head and they literally snap.

Are they to blame? Perhaps. But, IMO, the ones more at fault are the ones who teased, and the teachers that allowed it to happen in the first place.
:eek2:

I cannot express how vehemently I disagree with this argument. A kid who is a mean little bully is more to blame than kids who plot murder? That's madness.

I don't know anyone who wasn't teased or bullied, in one way or another, as a child. I also don't know anyone who was so scarred by it that they couldn't help but become a murderer. Part of becoming a morally well-adjusted person is being able to answer cruelty with peace -- or at least not to answer it with the worst kind of cruelty imaginable! If a person can only be good when everyone he meets is nice to him all the time, is he really good at all?

Sorry to rant. I am just so tired of our culture of victimization and displaced responsibility, where we expect so little from children that we think they can't help but snap unless we constantly stoke their egos and shield them from the reality that life sometimes sucks.

#25 Godeskian

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:27 PM

I realise you are objecting to the culture, but this sentence

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Sorry to rant. I am just so tired of our culture of victimization and displaced responsibility, where we expect so little from children that we think they can't help but snap unless we constantly stoke their egos and shield them from the reality that life sometimes sucks.

really gets to me. Ask me privately sometime what i went through and then tell me that snapping wouldn't have been a reasonable thing to do.

Respectfully, i'll disagree with your characterisation of myself as a someone who needed his ego stroked and needed to be shielded and leave it at that.

Edited by Cyberhippie, 19 March 2004 - 12:30 PM.


#26 Dev F

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:43 PM

Cyberhippie, on Mar 19 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

Respectfully, i'll disagree with your characterisation of myself as a someone who needed his ego stroked and needed to be shielded and leave it at that.
I'm sorry if you thought I was offering a characterization of you, but I surely was not. I don't know you; how can I presume to judge what you in particular went through?

What I am referring to is the general tendency in our society to confuse ordinary, run-of-the-mill cruelty -- which most people in the world face every day and emerge unbroken -- with far more serious issues like abuse and murder. My issue is with the tendency to coddle people who haven't faced the kind of adveristy that could reasonably cause them to snap, which is altogether different from the plight of those who have.

#27 Godeskian

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:45 PM

Fair enough. And I know you weren't trying to characterise me specifically, but you posted your comment right after saying that you had never known any well adjusted person who wasn't left scarred by events at school.

I feel that it speaks very directly to me, even if you didn't intend it that way.

point taken though.

#28 G1223

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:46 PM

CH I have seen the media go after the kids that were killed by the two gunmen at Colombine. After all they brought this onto them. Right? Bulling is physically threatening or and then going on to continue the mental and physical threats.

I did not live your life but my own taught me that for the most part the people at school were the faceless co workers  I had to deal with in my teenage years. After which they were easily forgotten and I went on to doing things with my friends  Because for me High School was just a place I had to be to keep a roof over my head.( Mom basically made it a rule for me to live there rent free. ...Gee guess whichway I went)

I discovered 10yrs later some nice people who I had gone to school with I sadly did not keep in touch but I have better feelings towards some of these people. And for the most part would be willing to step up and help if asked.

But here we have teasing and that is all and someone saying it's the little girls fault with no other explaination of what and how they were teased and I refuse to condem a 8yr old based on not enough eidence

#29 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:47 PM

Dev F, on Mar 19 2004, 11:51 AM, said:

I cannot express how vehemently I disagree with this argument. A kid who is a mean little bully is more to blame than kids who plot murder? That's madness...Sorry to rant. I am just so tired of our culture of victimization and displaced responsibility, where we expect so little from children that we think they can't help but snap unless we constantly stoke their egos and shield them from the reality that life sometimes sucks.
Well, speaking from a personal experience in regards to this matter...I can NOT disagree more with your comments. If you want to know more, PM me and I'll go more into detail.

As for the madness you cried...ask yourself this: Would those kids have been planning murder, if not for the girl's teasing and bullying? I don't think so.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#30 JadziaDax

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:49 PM

I think that there's a fine line between allowing the teasing to teach the kid to cope, and just plain ignoring them.

Like everyone else, I got teased in school growing up. Not only was I smaller then everyone, but I have NF, so I looked weird also.

With Cyberhippie, I do wish I could have gotten a little "ego stroking" because it downright sucked to be constantly teased day in and day out. Granted I never got to a breaking point in which I tried to attack someone. I mainly delt with it by becomming emotionally detached and in early middle school, stopped eating so I could avoid being teased at lunch time. So now I just deal with depression a lot. Guess it could be worse.

Then again I had a fairly distant family.

Ending that tidbit into my boring life...

The girl who did the bullying is probably in need of some attention. Most kids that age bully because they don't feel good about themselves. So she probably has troubles to.

But the way the other kids responded just boggles the mind. Did they talk to the teacher? Was this an ongoing thing? We don't really have the full story here. But somewhere along the line the kids didn't get the "violence is not an answer" part of life.

Going out on a limb, I blame the media for their reponse. Just watch TV shows these days, there are fist fights all over the place. Movies have copious amounts of violence also. The message these kids are getting is "violence solves problems". Power rangers (is that show even still on?) once got pulled from a community because a girl _died_ because some kids punched her and left her to lie in the snow. They did this after the watched an episode of it.

Other studies have shown that kids tried to immitate the rangers at recess after being shown an episode in class. (Um.....I'm pretty sure that 20/20 did something on this a long time ago).

And then you have all the video games today. From my understanding they can be awfully violent.

And this is the message young kids (may be) getting?

I fear for the future of the nation.

Granted, most kinds have enough sense to not resort to violence....but it still makes me worry.

Edited by JadziaDax, 19 March 2004 - 12:51 PM.

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#31 Godeskian

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:51 PM

G1223, on Mar 19 2004, 06:44 PM, said:

CH I have seen the media go after the kids that were killed by the two gunmen at Colombine. After all they brought this onto them. Right? Bulling is physically threatening or and then going on to continue the mental and physical threats.
not where I come from it's not.

Where I grew up and went to school, bullying is broken bones and hospitals.

It is calls to the police and being left in a crying heap after having been beat on.

It is being so scared of being attacked again that your dad takes a day off work so he can surreptisiously trail you in the car in the hopes of catching the bully because the school won't do anything.

That's what a bully is to me. If a bully is merely threats of physical violence and some emotional teasing, that's one thing, but that to me isn't a bully.

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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:52 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Mar 19 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

I think those who assume "teasing" to mean "bullying" based solely on the information in this story are jumping to rather extravagant conclusions. 

Like many of you I was subject to some teasing in school, as well as the occasional bully. There's a difference.
True, there is a difference.

One is direct violence, and the other leaves emotional scares.

It also depends on how long a period of time the teasing or bullying last. One day? One Week, One month, ect.

IMO, it usually takes a lot for a person to snap, or reach their breaking point. But, some reach it quicker then others. The point I'm trying to make is that, IMO, society treats the people who tease or bully as innocent victims, when they are far from it. IMO, they are the direct cause of the crime.

I'm by no means saying the person who snaps is innocent, far from it. They do the crime, they have to deal with the consequences. But so should the ones who brought the whole thing about through their teasing and bullying.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#33 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:53 PM

If you think the natural response to "teasing" is to plot murder, I think you need professional help.

You are projecting your own experience on this story. Your conclusions are not supported by anything reported in the bare facts of this, yet you're painting the conspirators as helpless and the potential victim as the author of her own planned demise.

Columbine certainly illustrated that verbal bullying is every bit as destructive as physical intimidation.  There is no evidence I'm reading in this story that indicates that's what happened here.

And, for that matter, you glide right over however the hell these kids were able to lay hands on guns and ammunition so easily.

Ro

#34 G1223

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:56 PM

We have guys who murdered people becasue they wanted to see the life go out of someones eyes. They had not been abused . The story said teasing?  Where did the bulliing come from? the fact ( What made it a fact) that teasing means bulliing?

I know people who teased me and I reacted to who were not doing it to be mean but were people who thought they were joking with me .  Would that excuse me blowing someones brains out? So why a 11yr old or two 8yrolds?

What Dev is going on about is this idea that some how these kids are not answerable for their actions that is somehow the victims fault. IT's done in court and it's wrong and it;s wrong to jump to the conculsion that anyhting beyond teasing took place.

#35 Godeskian

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:56 PM

I actually agree with you Ro, there response appears to have been way out of line, but I also agree that bullying (not 'teasing' mind you) can lead to people snapping, and under circumstances i can understand it even if i don't agree with it.

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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:01 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Mar 19 2004, 12:51 PM, said:

If you think the natural response to "teasing" is to plot murder, I think you need professional help.

You are projecting your own experience on this story. Your conclusions are not supported by anything reported in the bare facts of this, yet you're painting the conspirators as helpless and the potential victim as the author of her own planned demise.

Columbine certainly illustrated that verbal bullying is every bit as destructive as physical intimidation.  There is no evidence I'm reading in this story that indicates that's what happened here.

And, for that matter, you glide right over however the hell these kids were able to lay hands on guns and ammunition so easily.

Ro
Not sure if you were referring to me in the above quote.

But, either way I'll try and answer.

No, plotting murder to being teased is NOT exceptable. It is NOT ok. But if a person reaches their breaking point, I can understand it. When their breaking point is reached, things usually get violent. Sometimes they don't go and plot murder, sometimes they committ suicide to get away from it.

The point I've been trying to make is that this little girl is just as responsible, IMO, as the ones who plotted murder.

As for how they got their hands on guns...What is the color of the sky in your world?

Growing up in NYC all you had to do was walk a block or two over to get a gun if you wanted.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#37 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:02 PM

Verbal bullying is just as abusive as physical intimidation.  Words have power, as we see every day on this very forum.  

I'm not, btw, suggesting that there may not be bullying issues here. Just that it's far from proven by the information we have thus far.

Ro

#38 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:05 PM

G1223, on Mar 19 2004, 12:54 PM, said:

What Dev is going on about is this idea that some how these kids are not answerable for their actions that is somehow the victims fault. IT's done in court and it's wrong and it;s wrong to jump to the conculsion that anyhting beyond teasing took place.
By no means are they not responsible for their actions. That's not what I'm saying. They are.

However. IMO, and I'm probably biased on this issue, it IS the victims fault as well, in these types of cases.

You can not bully or tease someone for years and expect not to have something happen to you.


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I also agree that bullying (not 'teasing' mind you) can lead to people snapping, and under circumstances i can understand it even if i don't agree with it.

I disagree slightly. Teasing can be every bit, and in some cases more, destructive then physical violence.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 19 March 2004 - 01:07 PM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#39 the 'Hawk

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:14 PM

Okay, as much as I appreciate the experiences of everyone in this thread --and my own-- with teasing, set that aside for a moment.

These kids still had to get hands on a loaded weapon.

These kids *still* had to form the intent to SHOOT someone else in order to say, "let's get a gun".

A response to teasing such as a screamed "shut up!" or a shoving match--- those are natural responses. Those are immediate, instinctive, irrational responses. Those are rage responses.

You bring a GUN to SCHOOL? You didn't just pull it out of nowhere. There was *criminal* intent there. That's a response that requires pre-meditation. These kids were looking at first-degree murder as a reasonable answer to being teased.

And that's where the line is drawn. Goes back to the 'code of the schoolyard'. Somebody calls you a name, you stand up for yourself or you get the teacher. You don't take care of it the Chicago way.

These kids can get away with anything nowadays. The parents expect the teachers to be accountable, but they don't hold up their end of the deal. And you know what? The kids go ape on their teachers, the worst the teachers can do is send the kid home for three days. So what? There's no accountability on the part of the kid-- 'cause the parents go to bat for the kid. There's nothing wrong with my kid, they say, he just needs medication! he just needs supervision! he just needs structure! And you're supposed to provide it!

Nuts to that. Where are the parents at, I ask? And why don't they take ownership over their kid ---and, probably, their gun as well?

Truth be told, I don't know either. Probably working sixteen hours for minimum wage just to give that kid a place to call home. Probably out bustin' ass trying to make a living and hoping that the kid can take care of him or herself.

But they can't. There's a serious erosion in the authority of adult figures over these kids, precisely because there's no serious authority being presented-- we expect so much from teachers, from parents, from principals, from police officers.... but kids require role models, leadership figures, constant presences in order to form good judgment, good moral structures. They need routines. And when mommy's working days one week, afternoons the next, and daddy's off with his new wife.... they ain't getting it.

And they're all out of order-- the whole freakin' system is out of order. And there's nothing anyone can do about it. Everything you all see as individuals, all the frustration and depression and all of that --from kids, from educators, from parents, from kids who grew up---- it's all systemic in nature. There's too many common, corroborating experiences for it to work any other way.

But you can't solve a system problem. You can only deal with one tragedy at a time. This one was averted. How about next time?

:cool:
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#40 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:21 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Mar 19 2004, 11:59 AM, said:

Not sure if you were referring to me in the above quote. But, either way I'll try and answer.

I was, and thank you.

Here's  the facts told from the story above that relate directly to what we're talking about here.  

Quote

Two 8-year-old boys and an 11-year-old schoolmate were arrested after they buried a loaded handgun in a playground sandbox and plotted to shoot and stab a third-grade girl during recess, authorities said Thursday.

Sheriff Tim Fulton said the boys told investigators they intended to harm the young girl because she had teased two of them.
(Emphasis added)

If you have additional info about this situation, I'd love a followup link. As it is, extrapolating from THIS that  these kids (only two of whom were teased by the girl in question) were bullied to the breaking point is jumping to an unsupported conclusion.


Quote

No, plotting murder to being teased is NOT exceptable. It is NOT ok. But if a person reaches their breaking point, I can understand it. When their breaking point is reached, things usually get violent. Sometimes they don't go and plot murder, sometimes they committ suicide to get away from it.

Here we are in agreement.  

Quote

The point I've been trying to make is that this little girl is just as responsible, IMO, as the ones who plotted murder.

This is a classic example of blaming the victim. You specifically say this third grader is responsible because others were planning to KILL HER.  To support this statement requires evidence from THIS situation, not your own experiences, valid as they are in general.  



Quote

As for how they got their hands on guns...What is the color of the sky in your world?

Blue here in gun-totin' Texas, same as in Montana.   Guns are quite easy for adults to get here. 8 and 11-year-olds, I hope at any rate, not so much.

Quote

Growing up in NYC all you had to do was walk a block or two over to get a gun if you wanted.

My guess is this gun was from a family member. Not deliberately supplied, but carelessly secured. That's the crux of my admittedly rhetorical question.

Ro



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