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School children plan murder

Children Violence Schools Montana 2004

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#41 prolog

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:45 PM

Handmaiden07, on Mar 19 2004, 02:32 PM, said:

As a mom who regularly confronts the problem of bullies in school - it is a very challenging issue.  On the one hand, you want to teach your child to stand up for himself.  On the other - you watch these kids, with very little going for them in the way of opportunity, already behind the 8 ball academically, already labelled as "behavioral problems" by the school system, seeking to draw your child into their world by inciting them to fighting.  You know that the consequence will be that your child will be suspended/punished/expelled same as the kids who created the problem. You KNOW that ultimately, deep down, that's what the bully is hoping for - an opportunity to ruin your kid's opportunity.  And you feel hogtied.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Sunsport speaks up for himself well.  But he doesn't fight (not to mention that he's smaller and younger than all of his classmates), and he does tell the teacher when he has to.  But there are days when I wish I could just say to him "slam your fist into his face - that will end the bullying."  But I don't, and I can't because there is no structure supporting the idea of "self-defense" in the schools.
Thing is, though, bullies come from all walks of life.  I got bullied a lot in elementary school.  I was an easy target, really.  Anyhow, my major bullies have gone on to be a master's student, a Culligan Man, an excellent jazz bass player who has toured nationally with his group, and a drug dealer.  I don't think that bullying is something that only occurs within various social classes.

Most of my bullying was from grades four until six.  My dad gave me excellent advice: "they're not going to listen to you or their teachers or the principal, so fight back."  I did.  I got a black eye and a bloody nose, but I didn't get bullied after that.  Bullies are not rational creatures, and will not listen to reason.  I don't regret what I did, not an iota.  

So yeah, my dad gave me the advice that you don't want to give.  And when the principal called my dad in for a talk, my dad feigned a, "Well, that doesn't sound like Julian.  I'll certainly have a talk with him."  When we got him, I got a smile, and "good job."  I haven't fought since (not outside martial arts classes, at least).  There were times in high school when I was tempted, grade nine being worse for bullying for me than any other time, but that's the age when they start suspending you for stuff like that.  Pity.

#42 prolog

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 01:46 PM

Norville, on Mar 19 2004, 04:05 PM, said:

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All the rage, anger, feelings of helplessness come boiling to a head and they literally snap.

you have no idea how true i know this to be

Same here. I was considering a longer post, but had no idea how to make it "appropriate"... let me just say that I must've been raised right, because my school years were hell, but I never took my rage out in school shootings or burning anything down. Which isn't to say that I didn't have some pretty violent fantasies of how satisfying it would be to get revenge... but I kept them to myself. So I have a history of depression instead of a criminal record -- could be worse...
At least in Canada, much of one's criminal record is removed once one hits 18.  Or the small stuff, at least.

#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 02:07 PM

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I was, and thank you.

No problem. My pleasure.

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Here's the facts told from the story above that relate directly to what we're talking about here.



Two 8-year-old boys and an 11-year-old schoolmate were arrested after they buried a loaded handgun in a playground sandbox and plotted to shoot and stab a third-grade girl during recess, authorities said Thursday.

Sheriff Tim Fulton said the boys told investigators they intended to harm the young girl because she had teased two of them. 

(Emphasis added)

If you have additional info about this situation, I'd love a followup link. As it is, extrapolating from THIS that these kids (only two of whom were teased by the girl in question) were bullied to the breaking point is jumping to an unsupported conclusion.

I don't have any more facts, will try and find some. However, I did miss the fact that you just pointed out to me. Only 2 of them were teased. I though it was all of them. So on that I stand corrected. The one who wasn't teased...definately something wrong there, and not on the part of the girl.

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This is a classic example of blaming the victim. You specifically say this third grader is responsible because others were planning to KILL HER. To support this statement requires evidence from THIS situation, not your own experiences, valid as they are in general.

Wouldn't her teasing 2 of them qualify?

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My guess is this gun was from a family member. Not deliberately supplied, but carelessly secured. That's the crux of my admittedly rhetorical question.

That could very well be, and if it is, then those parents definately need to be investigated.

As for the incident that started this thread...After rereading the emphasized quote you provided...Something else nags at me.

These kids buried the gun in the sandbox. Whether they did it after school, in hopes of using it the next day, we don't know. But, it only says they buried the gun, not that they buried the knife as well. So, I can only guess that they had the knife on their person still. Which then leads me to wonder why they buried the gun in the first place.

If a person's reached their "snapping point", yes, they can go get a gun and come back and committ murder. But to come back, then bury the gun....planning on using it later...that doesn't sound like someone whose "Snapped" Usually they snap, get a gun, then go on a shooting spree. Why bury the gun?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#44 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 02:12 PM

I was an overweight, brainy kid-often teacher's pet.  I got teased a lot. Most of it was painful, but strangers weren't the ones who scarred me there.

I was also bullied a couple of times. Verbally more than physically.

I used to see this girl in the hallways between classes. She would look at me with utter contempt, and with a sneer in her voice that indicated I was lower than the gum she scraped off her shoe say, "Well, thats [my firstname my lastname].  This was in high school.

She did it every single day. For months. Made me miserable. She knew it, too, and enjoyed the power it gave her.  The power that I abdicated.

It wasn't the first time nor the last someone tried to bully me.

But I was tired of letting them do it.


I thought about this all the time.  You might even say I obsessed about it.  What could I do?  Even if I reported it, all she was doing was saying my name.  Her friends would rally to her, and I'd be further outside looking in.

I was afraid of a physical fight, though frankly, I probably could have taken the little skank.

Finally I had had enough. Did I go find a gun, or take a fist to her face? No.

I made a decision. For myself.  I decided the next time she did that, I was going to spit right in her eye. Literally.  I was even looking forward to it. Even if there was a fight. Even if I got in trouble, I'd have stood up for myself.  

You know what?  She never did it again.  

I never got the chance to carry out my plan, because my whole demeanor changed. I held my head high, and looked her in the eye  without blinking. Waiting for her to make the move that would set my plan in motion.

The first time I went through the hallway unmolested, I felt such a sense of my own power.  It was a character forming moment that I'll never forget and that has served me well all my life.

I wouldn't cross the street to say hello to that girl-and she may have grown up to be a lovely woman.  But we're both still alive and I, at least, am unincarcerated.

Ro
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#45 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 02:23 PM

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Wouldn't her teasing 2 of them qualify?

It's a disproportionate response.  Killing for being teased.

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These kids buried the gun in the sandbox. Whether they did it after school, in hopes of using it the next day, we don't know. But, it only says they buried the gun, not that they buried the knife as well. So, I can only guess that they had the knife on their person still. Which then leads me to wonder why they buried the gun in the first place.

If a person's reached their "snapping point", yes, they can go get a gun and come back and committ murder. But to come back, then bury the gun....planning on using it later...that doesn't sound like someone whose "Snapped" Usually they snap, get a gun, then go on a shooting spree. Why bury the gun?

Very good question.  

Also, I don't think 8 and 11 year olds are necessarily able to grasp the finality of "killing" someone.  At those ages my experience with death was limited to a couple of family members who I didn't see very much anyway. The knowledge that I wouldn't see them anymore was abstract rather than concrete.

I was in JHS when a contemporary was killed in a car accident. That's when the knowledge was concrete.  Like a concrete block in my gut.

Ro

#46 Shalamar

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 02:43 PM

According to the article, they brought the gun to school Wed, and burried it and the extra ammunition in the play yard with the intent of commiting their actions on Thursday.

This is not incident rage, it is not spur of the moment snap...this was deliberately planned out and prepared for.

Ilke every one else here I can speak of the teaseing  and ( for me ) minor bullying I endured during my child hood.  Teaseing and bullying to me are entirely seperate things.
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#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 06:51 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Mar 19 2004, 02:21 PM, said:

It's a disproportionate response.  Killing for being teased.
I never claimed that is was an appropriate response...only that she is also to blame...with at least two of them.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#48 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 06:55 PM

Where we disagree, LotS, and probably always will  is in assessing that the blame (if any) is equivalent.

Not even if she was a bully would I say that an 8 year old girl was responsible for inciting her own murder.

Ro

#49 Norville

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:49 PM

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Which isn't to say that I didn't have some pretty violent fantasies of how satisfying it would be to get revenge... but I kept them to myself. So I have a history of depression instead of a criminal record -- could be worse...
At least in Canada, much of one's criminal record is removed once one hits 18. Or the small stuff, at least.

Um... are you suggesting that I should've acted out my impulses because I would've been forgiven later? That's so wrong to me, I can't even express it... :crazy:
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#50 the 'Hawk

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:59 PM

^ Actually, to clarify on whatever they're calling it (I think it's the Youth Justice Act now):

Technically, anything you do before you're thirteen in Canada is absolved from your record. Unless they choose to charge you as an adult. Which they can do once you're eighteen. Either way, any non-adult charges are locked away once you turn eighteen. I think they can access them for certain court-related reasons (like to show pattern of behaviour-- I don't even think then).

Now, that's not to counsel anyone under thirteen to get away with whatever they want--- in fact, the law was enacted largely to keep youth who get mixed up in bad times and criminal charges from having the rest of their lives tainted by a youthful indiscretion. However, it tends to make youthful indiscretions less infrequent on the parts of those youths who understand and can work the law to their advantage (as twisted a concept as that sounds, it happens).

:cool:
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#51 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 01:33 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Mar 19 2004, 06:53 PM, said:

Where we disagree, LotS, and probably always will  is in assessing that the blame (if any) is equivalent.

Not even if she was a bully would I say that an 8 year old girl was responsible for inciting her own murder.

Ro
You're correct...We probably will always disagree on assessing the blame.

IMO, one's actions have consequences...even if those consequences aren't always fair or correct.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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