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Bush gets heat for WMD jokes

Bush Correspondents Dinner 2004 WMD jokes

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#101 MuseZack

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 11:57 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 28 2004, 08:52 PM, said:

heh.  Point 'Hawk.  To Shal and Zack and whoever else is currently pissed off at me, well I don't want you to be pissed off at me but I find myself increasingly discouraged by what appears to me to be (and you're right Shal, I don't *know* what you're feeling but I can tell you how it appears to me...) simple apathy.  I'm tired of seeing everything come down to political lines instead of seeing people simply look at things in terms of right and wrong. Maybe I just need a break from politics in general.
Lil, what in my previous posts gave you the impression I was pissed off at you?  I stated my reasons for not being offended by the WMD jokes, but this is clearly a matter on which reasonable people can differ.  If my tone was in any way snippy, I apologize.
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#102 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 12:04 AM

Awwww.  {{{{{{{{{{{Zack}}}}}}}}}}  You don't owe me any apologies.  The truth is that I'm just spending too much time worrying about politics these days.  Thank you for your post though.   :love:  :love:  :love:  :love:  :love:
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#103 Norville

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 02:15 AM

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I'm tired of seeing everything come down to political lines instead of seeing people simply look at things in terms of right and wrong. Maybe I just need a break from politics in general.

I think I must need a break myself. There are things I've wanted to say in this thread -- such as, it would be *nice* to not lie in order to go to war, if they were indeed lies, because going to war is pretty much the most serious action a nation can take, and I'm obsessed with looking for the truth in everything -- but I've refrained. After all, I'd just be getting in trouble, having my opinions dismissed and belittled, getting called a liberal liar... I'd rather go away and read a good book, because the "novelty" of all that wears off pretty fast. :rolleyes:

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Leaving the thread and returning you to "Mindless Bush Bad manta speech." already in progress.

Hey, G, it doesn't reflect well on you to declare melodramatically (in the midst of incoherence) that you're done with Lil, for her not to contact you, then come back to participate in the thread, then storm out again as if you'd expected to change her mind in the interim by "threatening" her. ;) Hey, whatever thrills you...

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You might also try the highly original concept of responding to what people actually SAY rather than putting words into their mouths.

Nah, that tactic is far too entertaining to the people who do it to operate in any other way.
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#104 Shalamar

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:06 AM

Lil just to let you know I am not pissed at you either. Like I said before we just disagree on this, and I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was "pissed' at you.

Norville - please understand that  not every one here who holds a 'conservative' outlook/ opinion  feels or does this:

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After all, I'd just be getting in trouble, having my opinions dismissed and belittled, getting called a liberal liar

and that is just as sweeping and inflamatory as other things and rather hurtfull to those who hold different outlooks and do not do as you state above.

We are all individuals here with as many different points of view, thoughts, and opinions as there are people here.

I have the right to disagree with your opinions, - I do not have the right to belittle them, or dismiss them...just as you have the same

And your last line is just...adding fuel to the fire as far as I am concerned.
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#105 Kevin Street

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:31 AM

All right, let's remember that we're all here to have a discussion. Okay? Let's talk about the subject, and not each other.

Please.

#106 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:35 AM

Actually Kevin I think it's a good thing to clear the air at times.  I often feel the frustration that Norville expressed.  Sometimes getting a little emotional is what it takes.  I appreciate that you want to keep the peace but peace should not come at the cost of stifling what often is quite useful discourse.  That's how communication ought to work.
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#107 Kevin Street

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:39 AM

I hear you, and I've tried to stay out of this thread for more or less that reason. This has been a very good thread for most of its length, bringing back lots of issues for discussion. But with most people having expressed their views, I'm just hoping that discussion doesn't get derailed now.

#108 Shalamar

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:21 AM

Not trying to start a fire but according to this apparently Kerry believed that WMD's existed.

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#109 Kevin Street

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:37 AM

Erm, "Right Wing News?" That sounds like a somewhat one-sided source for information. :eh:

Anyway, on to the topic. It isn't news that Kerry believed in Saddam's WMDs. (Heck, everybody did back then.) The thing is, Kerry didn't have the resources of the CIA, the DIA, the NSA, and all the other alphabet soup agencies to give him advice and support, like the President did. It's true that Kerry wimped out and voted for the war, but he's changed his views since then as new information came to light. By contrast, Mr. Bush and his Administration have never admitted that they were wrong, even though they were very strident and vocal at the time when issuing their warnings about the threat posed by Iraq. It's this continued lack of any admission of culpability, combined with increasingly tenuous justifications to suport their intitial assumptions, that gives the White House the air of a Liar's Club. If Bush and his crew had just come clean after the invasion and said something like "Darn, guess we were wrong about the weapons. But now that we're here we might as well finish the job" they could have salvaged a lot of credibility.

#110 Shalamar

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:56 AM

I found it (the site ) looking through some blogs I lurk/read...and yes it seems to be very biased, thats why I included an 'apparently' - I don't put it past people to make things up just to prove a point.

The point I'm trying to make is that Bush may have acted on inaccurate, inadequate information - but if he was given it as the truth, does that make him a liar?

To me it doesn't - make him a liar that is -

Yes I can fault him to kingdom come for exactly what you said:

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It's this continued lack of any admission of culpability, combined with increasingly tenuous justifications to suport their intitial assumptions, that gives the White House the air of a Liar's Club. If Bush and his crew had just come clean after the invasion and said something like "Darn, guess we were wrong about the weapons. But now that we're here we might as well finish the job" they could have salvaged a lot of credibility.

but it bothers me very badly to see some one continually labeled a liar when we, the greater populace do not have  - and never will have, most likely - all the data given to him, the data he had to use to make the call on.

If you are told a lie as the truth then repeat that lie or act on it- to me that does not make one a liar in my opinion.

They believed that there were WMD - as I said in an earlier post even Saddam believed he had WMD.

and belief is a powerful motivator. okay, so it turns out that there have been none found yet - there may have been, and there are many things being found that show Saddam tried various non atomic/nuclear stuff WMD out on his own people.

I wonder sometimes how are people going to feel if we do find WMD.
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#111 Delvo

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 05:54 AM

Shalamar, on Mar 29 2004, 03:54 AM, said:

I wonder sometimes how are people going to feel if we do find WMD.
After the many years they had to prepare in advance for something like this and then the 14 months he was given to hide them before the coaltion actually moved, and given how creative they're known to have been in hiding the few tidbits that have been found, by the time anything major is found somewhere, it'll be a curious footnote in history about something that people no longer have personal political and emotional investments in.

#112 emsparks

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 07:36 AM

the'Hawk, on Mar 29 2004, 01:38 AM, said:

This thread burns me out. The same spinning about in the same circles.

:cool:
Dear Hawk;

With the utmost of respect, I am not spinning; hell I donít even know how to dance, let alone the Texas two step. I am not a fan of President Bush, and will vote against him come November.

I will leave you with this:
An intelligent man knows what he knows; a wise man knows how much he doesnít know. One has to look at what is not said, along with what is said.

There is too much missing information, for me not to believe that the WMD bit was either a poorly executed lie, or a brilliant cover story. Of those things covert that would demand such a cover story is signals intelligence.

For all we know Saddam could have just concluded a secret pact with the Iranian government to attack us in Afghanistan. Thatís not to say that such took place, but it is something that could have happened, that we would have many reasons to keep secret.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 29 March 2004 - 07:52 AM.

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#113 MuseZack

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 11:25 AM

Shalamar, on Mar 29 2004, 09:19 AM, said:

Not trying to start a fire but according to this apparently Kerry believed that WMD's existed.

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Shalamar:

A lot of us thought Iraq had WMDs.  But unlike the President, John Kerry doesn't have his own intelligence gathering operation at his disposal.  Like the rest of us, he relied on the information the Bush people gave him, not knowing at the time that a lot of it was coming through dubious sources like con man Ahmed Chalabi, then cherrypicked and filtered through the Office of Special Plans to be made to sound as threatening as possible.  So as far as the decision making process goes, garbage in, garbage out, as they say.
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Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
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#114 Drew

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 12:00 PM

I've said to before and I'll say it again. If someone's rattling his sabre at you, and you take him out, it's not your fault if the sabre turned out to be imaginary. He rattled it just the same, and you'd be nuts to ignore it, because there's always the possibility that it's not imaginary.

(Yes, Kerry did say that quote. Congress was presented with the same intelligence as the President when they were asked to vote on the war resolution. The usual defense is "Well, after 9/11 you had to side with the President." Yes, I suppose if all you were worried about was your reelection possibilities, yes, you did. Though you'll sound like someone who wants it both ways. There's a case for Congressional term limits right there.)

And that's all I have to say about that.
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#115 Chipper

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 08:35 PM

schoolpsycho, on Mar 28 2004, 12:38 AM, said:

Hello, Chipper.

Yes, The President made the joke.

So, if you or me or anyone else besides him makes it, does that mean we're excused because we're *not* him?

sp
You may not be necessarily excused in any one's eyes.  The thing is, the pres. led us into this war under the pretenses that Iraq had WMDs that threatened the security of this nation.  For him to make jokes about it in the middle of not only a campaign year but also a time when he is under fire for NOT finding these WMDs (and in the eyes of some, leading a completley unjustified war -- based on the pretenses by which we went in; i'm personally happy Saddam is gone though I think we went about some things in the very wrong way), is simply not classy and a huge mistake IMO.

He may laugh, so may the press, so may I.  However looking at it objectively, it is not IMO a joke the president should think was fitting at this current point in time.  Not when people have and still are dying every day.
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#116 HubcapDave

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 08:26 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 28 2004, 04:59 PM, said:

I think that it depends on whether you believe that in order to do a good job as president you have to be faithful to your spouse.  Personally I don't.  This does not mean that I condone Bill's behavior with Monica because I think he was an idiot about the whole thing.  I also think he badly mishandled things by lying to his colleagues about it.  But really Dave, do you honestly think that being a good husband is a BFOQ for being a good president?  Hey I'll bet you that Dubbaya is a much better husband to his wife than Bill is to Hillary. But it has nothing to do with whether he mislead this country into a war.

Lil
Not sure what BFOQ means, but I think I can still answer your question.

(Note: This is also an answer to GiGi as well, so I may say things that doesn't refer directly to your post Lil)

I have two thoughts on why it does. The first is that I don't agree that what happens in one area of a person's life is completely separate from the other parts. I don't mean that there's a difference between a person's public and private life. What I mean is that what a person does in one aspect of their life has effects and is indicative of how they operate in their other aspects. To my point of view, if Clinton was willing to be dihonest to his wife and be irresponsible to fool around with the help during office hours, that willingness to lie and be irresponsible would extend to all aspects of his life. You may not agree with me, but that's how I see it.

There's also the question of what was Clinton supposed to be doing those times he was getting Monica's dress dirty? Something has to be said for indulging his "personal" life on company time!

As for your last line, that's not what we're arguing. You said the president needs to be held to a higher standard. I'm just asking if that applies equally to all presidents. Because to my way of thinking, chiding a president for acting like a comedian but giving another a free pass (more or less) for infidelity would not be an equal application of holding our leader to a higher standard.

#117 GiGi

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 10:35 PM

^I do agree it goes to character.  Then answer me this, way is Bill's playing with the help any different than the sexual harassment that Arnold indulged in?

To me there are little lies and big lies.  Little lies are fudging write-offs on a tax form, big lies are embezzling billions of dollars, like the Enron scandal involving California.  While it could be argued that a little tax fudging could lead to embezzlement, like smoking a joint could lead to heroin use, it is actually more rare than common.

Bottomline, we do not know Bill and Hillary's relationship arrangements, they could have an open marriage, it has certainly been rumored that Hillary is a lesbian.  I don't know, and I don't want to know. It really is none of my business.  What is my business is lies that led the country I live in into a war that has killed innocent people, maimed children and destroyed many cities.  I pick up the SF Chronicle and read about local people who have lost their children in this war.  Kids aged nineteen and twenty that had promising futures and now the family is devastated.  We know the price of war, and the war we start had better be worth the price that will be paid. When we take actions with such consequences, lies are the last thing I am happy to hear about.  That falls under the category of a big lie. (and before we start the Sadam was a murdering SOB one more time, there is NO guarantee that the next regime to get the power won't be WORSE, such is the way of Middle Eastern religious politics!)  Sexual infidelity while not an honorable way to conduct a relationship is not equal to a war, not in my book.  

So, I guess we will have to disagree about this.
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#118 MuseZack

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 10:51 PM

The thing that made me so angry about Clinton's escapades wasn't that he fooled around with a (much younger) woman who wasn't his wife.  That was really between him and Hillary, and I've lived long enough to stop even trying to understand other peoples' marriages.  It's that a man could be so timid and risk-averse politically (did Clinton really attempt anything ambitious after the health care debacle?) while being so reckless and self-indulgent in his personal life.

And while I thought the impeachment proceedings were absurd and a load of politically motivated crap by opponents who couldn't stand the fact that he whupped them at the ballot box twice, it was Clinton who gave them the ammunition to work with, and ended up hamstringing his own administration during the last two years of his presidency.

Zack
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
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#119 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 11:24 PM

MuseZack, on Mar 30 2004, 07:49 PM, said:

And while I thought the impeachment proceedings were absurd and a load of politically motivated crap by opponents who couldn't stand the fact that he whupped them at the ballot box twice, it was Clinton who gave them the ammunition to work with, and ended up hamstringing his own administration during the last two years of his presidency.

Zack
YEAH, VERILY AND FORSOOTH

And shame on the Gore campaign for not taking on the Clinton escapades head on and using him as the asset he really COULD have been for that campaign.  By shunning him the Gore campaign merely lent credence to the idea that a man's marital indiscretions are the end all and be all of qualification for the office and you know what? I think that did at least as much damage as Nader's campaign.
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