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France considers selling advanced weapons to China

France Selling Weapons China

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#21 tennyson

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 03:05 PM

As I've pointed out the French were already selling advanced weapons to the PRC in the 1980s and are still doing so with the events of 1989 being no great interruption. A significant portion of China's most advanced weapons are already French in origin as I've detailed before. This is a case of the French attempting to export the new generation of systems to the PRC which is pretty hypcritical considering thier mid 1990s sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan. But then other arms producers like the Dutch submarine builders have been bullied by the mainland into not selling weapons to Taiwan before.

#22 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:38 AM

Update:EU links Arms to Rights

Quote

Beijing should do more improve China's human rights record before the EU lifts a 15-year-old arms embargo, Romano Prodi has said.

Quote

"I did not put it as a pre-condition, but I told them twice how important it is for the European public opinion that there are progresses on human rights," Prodi told journalists after meeting Chinese leader Wen Jiabao.

Quote

But other EU capitals, and Washington, are uneasy over lifting the ban without clear evidence of human rights progress from Beijung.

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#23 gaius claudius

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 09:24 AM

Gefiltefishmon, on Apr 6 2004, 10:25 AM, said:

Oi!

I read this thread and realize that while we are all speaking English I don't understand what you are saying. Why would anyone sell advanced weapons to the Chinese? I can't believe the French are that stupid (well, actually yes I can) to actually believe the Chinese would be content to just "keep the advanced weapons around" and not use them on their neighbors!!!!!!

Hey France, next time you have a revolution, try not to kill all the smart people, you apparently need them.
Can we possibly discuss ther policies of the French gov't  without malinging the people et al.

I am so damn sick of french bashing just for the hell of it.. If you have problems woth their gov't ...coolness...if you want to argue those policies...also great..

If you want to malign French people in general just because of the country they're from, do it somewhere else..


gc  :devil:

Edited by gaius claudius, 14 April 2004 - 11:35 AM.

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#24 Kevin Street

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 11:14 AM

*Puts on mod hat*

All right gaius claudius, I understand that you're sick of French-bashing, but please don't bash other Islers to make up for it. The "white hood" comment isn't called for. And Gefiltefishmon, please don't make generalizations about the intelligence of an entire country. It isn't cool, and there are people of French ancestry who post here.
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#25 Shalamar

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 11:24 AM

I don't believe that the French government is very wise in pursueing this plan, and as an American citizen it makes me rather uncomfortable - I feel that it is not a American friendly action.

The thought of China having more advanced military technology is not comforting either.
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#26 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 11:31 AM

^France isn't alone in it either.  Germany is as much supportive of it as France.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#27 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 11:36 AM

Color me really not surprised. After all they are the two merchants of death who prior to the 91 war had supplied a huge amount to Saddam's Regime,in the way of chemicle materials and equipment. Then like in the movie Casablanca were shocked to find out what it was being used for.
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#28 Palisades

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 01:21 PM

^ We sold Saddam bacteria back when we were chummy with him. Oh, and I bet we were shocked, shocked! when we found out what he used them for.

Sunday Herald:

Quote

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

VX nerve gas?!!!

Also see: USA Today

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#29 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 03:01 PM

My point is France and Germany  ar the sort of folks who knife you in the back and deal with your enemies, And then have the nerve to cry foul when you do something against a long time business partner of theirs,or call them on their behavior.
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#30 Guldorak

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 04:28 PM

G1223, on Apr 14 2004, 07:59 PM, said:

My point is France and Germany  ar the sort of folks who knife you in the back and deal with your enemies, And then have the nerve to cry foul when you do something against a long time business partner of theirs,or call them on their behavior.
Spoken like a true bigot.

I got news for you fellows its a free world and countries will act in thier best self interest including the US. I won't even start on detailling the list of weapons sold to dubious regimes. * cough* Iraq * cough*

#31 tennyson

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 04:48 PM

Why are you coughing Iraq? Russia, France, China, South Africa and Brazil supplied almost all of its weapons.
The French supplied the Exocet, AS.30L and Matra Magic missiles and the Mirage F1 as well as self-propelled artillery and the Roland surface to air missile and the AMX-30 tank. and fast attack craft.
The Russians sold them the SS-1B Scud, the Frog-7 missile, over eighty percent of thier tube artillery and almost all thier artillery rockets, the T-54/55, T-62, and T-72 tanks, the BMP-1 IFV, the BDRM and BTR series of APCs, several pieces of self-proplled artillery, the Mig-29, Mig-23, Mig-25 and  Mig-21 fighters, the Su-7, Su-24, and Tu-16 bombers with air launched missiles including the AS-5, AS-14 as well as all thier Air to air missiles but what the French sold them, thier Sa-2, Sa-3, Sa-6, Sa-7 and Sa-13 surface to aiir missiles, thier RPGs, small arms, AT series antitank missiles, Mi-24 and Mi-8 attack helicopters and the list goes on and on.
The Chinese sold Iraq the Silkworm antiship missile, thier F-6 and F-7 copies of Russian fighters, the Type 69 II tank as well as APCs, small arms and RPGs.
The Brazilians sold them the Astros II artillery rocket and the EE-9 Cascavel armoured car.
The South Africans sold them the G-5 155mm howizter as well as ammunition.
The only other nations resprsented in Iraq's armory were Yugoslavia with a training ship,North Korea with Scud variants, Italy with a couple of corvettes and a few frigates that were never actually allowed out of Italy due to the Iran-Iraq war and whatever US and British equipment they happened to have captured from the Iranians in 8 years of war.

on a seperate issue Quantuam Flux, nerve gas? I need to see more here.

#32 Palisades

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 05:19 PM

^ This analysis claims to be a copy of what appeared in The New York Times (you have to pay to get it from the Times' website).

Edit: Fixed link

Edited by QuantumFlux, 14 April 2004 - 05:22 PM.

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#33 Appreciate

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 07:07 PM

Guldorak, on Apr 14 2004, 02:26 PM, said:

G1223, on Apr 14 2004, 07:59 PM, said:

My point is France and Germany  ar the sort of folks who knife you in the back and deal with your enemies, And then have the nerve to cry foul when you do something against a long time business partner of theirs,or call them on their behavior.
Spoken like a true bigot.

I got news for you fellows its a free world and countries will act in thier best self interest including the US. I won't even start on detailling the list of weapons sold to dubious regimes. * cough* Iraq * cough*
G1223 and Guldorak, enough with the name calling and sweeping negative generalizations.  If you wish to make a point please do so without resorting to such tactics.

Thank you.

-Kathy
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If I throw poison in the water main..."
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#34 Guldorak

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 07:23 PM

Appreciate, on Apr 15 2004, 12:05 AM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 14 2004, 02:26 PM, said:

G1223, on Apr 14 2004, 07:59 PM, said:

My point is France and Germany  ar the sort of folks who knife you in the back and deal with your enemies, And then have the nerve to cry foul when you do something against a long time business partner of theirs,or call them on their behavior.
Spoken like a true bigot.

I got news for you fellows its a free world and countries will act in thier best self interest including the US. I won't even start on detailling the list of weapons sold to dubious regimes. * cough* Iraq * cough*
G1223 and Guldorak, enough with the name calling and sweeping negative generalizations.  If you wish to make a point please do so without resorting to such tactics.

Thank you.

-Kathy
Its pretty damn obvious that a bunch of the posters in this thread are Francophobes. Frankly my reponse was quite restrained compared to my reaction to reading this hate literature.

#35 MuseZack

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 07:38 PM

Here's another ostensibly friendly country that wants to sell weapons to China.  I look forward to the furious denunciations and accusations of treachery.

http://www.atimes.co...a/FC26Ad02.html
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#36 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 07:49 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 14 2004, 07:36 PM, said:

Here's another ostensibly friendly country that wants to sell weapons to China.  I look forward to the furious denunciations and accusations of treachery.
What you just posted:

Quote

But it should be noted that the Israelis have made it clear they will not cross Washington again and take the risk of offering a system to China that Washington regards as a threat to its strategic interests. Thus there is reason to believe that there will be limits and restraints to whatever Israel is prepared to offer China.

So what about it Zack?  ;)  You won’t see Israel selling anything to China that will ruffle the feathers of the United States anytime soon.   Somehow I doubt France will behave in that manner.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 14 April 2004 - 07:52 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#37 MuseZack

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:14 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Apr 15 2004, 12:47 AM, said:

MuseZack, on Apr 14 2004, 07:36 PM, said:

Here's another ostensibly friendly country that wants to sell weapons to China.  I look forward to the furious denunciations and accusations of treachery.
What you just posted:

Quote

But it should be noted that the Israelis have made it clear they will not cross Washington again and take the risk of offering a system to China that Washington regards as a threat to its strategic interests. Thus there is reason to believe that there will be limits and restraints to whatever Israel is prepared to offer China.

So what about it Zack?  ;)  You won’t see Israel selling anything to China that will ruffle the feathers of the United States anytime soon.   Somehow I doubt France will behave in that manner.
Read the article.  Israel's already sold 4 billion dollars in weapons, including a fighter that's helped China develop their new semi-stealth fighter platform.  They tried to sell an AWACS system and only backed down after furious U.S. pressure.  I'm basing things on what Israel's already done.  You're making statements over what France might do in the future, even though the EU has been pressuring them to not make sales.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#38 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:36 PM

Appreciate, on Apr 15 2004, 12:05 AM, said:

G1223 and Guldorak, enough with the name calling and sweeping negative generalizations.  If you wish to make a point please do so without resorting to such tactics.

Thank you.

-Kathy
I aimed my comments towards the French and German governments and their business community.  I made no personal attacks in this thread nor insults towards any poster. So get off my back.

Sorry Kathy

Edited by G1223, 14 April 2004 - 08:53 PM.

If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#39 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 09:02 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 14 2004, 08:12 PM, said:

I'm basing things on what Israel's already done.  You're making statements over what France might do in the future, even though the EU has been pressuring them to not make sales.
And you neglect to mention that Israel is highly unlikely to do anything to offend the US over China again.  Not with how important the US is to Israel as an ally and how heavy the US leaned on them last time.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#40 Jid

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 09:10 PM

Delvo, on Apr 4 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

How is "Rafale" supposed to be pronounced? "Ra-FALL" with no third syllable?
Best guess, (as confirmed by the nearest french speaker I could talk to) you're rougly right, though the way you say "fall" is rather... french ;)

Rafale.  French for Squall.  Guess they expect the jet to whip up a sudden storm.
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