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France considers selling advanced weapons to China

France Selling Weapons China

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#41 tennyson

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 10:21 PM

Better than the helicopter they named squirrl I guess. But on to my point, I wasn't making furious denuciations but I was pretty peeved at Isreal when they were going to sell the AWACS and sighed with relief when it didn't happen. I have also pointed out earlier France's selling to China after other nations' like the US and Britian stopped selling to them in 1989. (There are a bunch of Sikorsky S-70 helicopters that haven't been running very well for almost a decade and a half now thanks to the US's refusal to sell the PRC anymore parts, although other dual use technolgies have made it to the PRC anyway, just like the McDonnel Douglas MD 500 made it to North Korea and got a guy jail time for it.) I even managed to corner a Russian foriegn policy expert after she gave a talk at my university after the dubious nature of her country's sale of advanced weapons to the PRC so you'll find no hypocracy with me on this issue. I'm don't sell weapons to the PRC across the board.
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#42 Kevin Street

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 03:06 AM

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Guldorak:
Its pretty damn obvious that a bunch of the posters in this thread are Francophobes. Frankly my reponse was quite restrained compared to my reaction to reading this hate literature.

I don't think anyone here is a Francophile or hater of any kind, Guldorak. It's just that we get tend to get excited in this forum, and on the Internet you're not talking with people face to face, so there's no warning signs and it's all too easy to accidentally offend.

And consider please what you would do if confronted with someone in Real Life who offended you. Chances are, you'd make it clear that you're not pleased by glaring at them or using some other nonverbal signal, then give them a chance to explain themselves before calling them a bigot. This place shouldn't be any different, except we have to use words instead of nonverbal signals.

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G1223:
I aimed my comments towards the French and German governments and their business community.  I made no personal attacks in this thread nor insults towards any poster. So get off my back.

Sorry Kathy

I asked Appreciate to intervene in this thread, because your comments can be perceived as insults by Ex Islers of French or German descent, much like the earlier comment on page one. As you can see, two people in this thread do feel insulted by this kind of thing, so can we please tone down the generalizations? Look at Zack and CJ Aegis. They've been debating this issue pretty vigorously, but haven't used generalizations of any kind.

#43 G1223

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 10:25 AM

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#44 G-man

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:26 PM

I don't know ... seems to me that a major point is being missed.

The US is not the whole world.  And guess what? France and Israel are not part of the US.  And neither is Taiwan.  And last I looked the Bush Administration was having second thoughts about whether Taiwan was worth going to war over.

These nations act in their own perceived best interests, and sometimes those interests run counter to what the others want.  It's not betrayal, it runs counter to US Interests.  

So, we shouldn't expect the world to do what we wants, but instead deal with it.  If the we want to maintain dominance in the air over any and all comers, pony up the fee and start producing en mass those new fighter jets.  If we want to maintain dominance in the sea, invest in the warships and the submarines so they can do so.  This as opposed to relying on systems that are 20-50 years old that are beginning to show their age.

Basically, if France wants to sell arms to China, well, I may not like it, but France is well within its rights as a sovereign nation to do so.

/s/

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#45 Godeskian

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:32 PM

What's more, it's a little hypocritical for Bush to do a whole bunch of things unilaterally and then say another country cannot.

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#46 Norville

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:33 PM

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Then I shall simply leave

Then don't let the door hit you on your way out, G. I'm wondering why you can't discuss your annoyance with France without making it seem as if you have disgust for all French people -- I mean, hey, the French are the French, and they do seem sometimes to live to annoy everyone, but there are *some* good French people (and I know one or two). Can you deal with that, or do you need to go with the France-bashing crowd because it's what "your" side is telling you to do? I just wonder.

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The US is not the whole world.

Although we do try to be...

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And guess what? France and Israel are not part of the US. And neither is Taiwan. And last I looked the Bush Administration was having second thoughts about whether Taiwan was worth going to war over.

These nations act in their own perceived best interests, and sometimes those interests run counter to what the others want. It's not betrayal, it runs counter to US Interests.

So, we shouldn't expect the world to do what we wants, but instead deal with it.

Agreed. I'm thinking that we've lost sight of the fact that, just because we're powerful, not every country is going to obey us, because they have their own interests. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong and eeeevil; it means they're trying to be their own sovereign country. We don't like anyone telling us what to do -- why should they?

Just a thought; feel free to shred it to pieces, as someone undoubtedly will. ;)
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#47 Godeskian

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:36 PM

I actually agree with it completely

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#48 tennyson

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:41 PM

My take, that I explained to the Russian foriegn policy expert was that selling the PRC those weapons was against the long term security interests of her own country just as supplying weapons and nuclear materials to Iran was against the long term security interests of Russia no matter how much hard currency the sales may bring. The PLA has an expansionist agenda informing its long term policy that will directly conflict with the interests of many nations such as Russia and providing the means for that expansion will not serve as protection when it reaches them. I view the French and Isreali sales as against the long term security interests ofthe nations in question just as I would view the US sellling advanced weapons to the PRC as against its own long-term interests. It is not just because this is against the interests of the US that I am opposed to this.
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#49 Godeskian

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:45 PM

But if it is in the long term interests of the french goverment (or they believe it is) don't they have a right to run their country as they feel is best for them?

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#50 Shalamar

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:46 PM

Norville, please don't take swats at G1223, there is no need to get personal about it.

as he said, what he meant was/ clairified as:

Quote

aimed my comments towards the French and German governments and their business community

He also stated that he was leaving the thread, and if he is not here to explain further then you don't look so good by your comments.
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#51 tennyson

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:15 PM

Yes, and I never said they didn't have that right, what I'm talking about is wether the perception of threat is valid.
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#52 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 02:04 PM

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G-Man: Basically, if France wants to sell arms to China, well, I may not like it, but France is well within its rights as a sovereign nation to do so.
And as a sovereign nation the US is well within our rights to make France very miserable for doing that if they decide to go ahead.  So I suggest we exercise our right to squeeze the French until they squirm.  Between nations he who can lean the most and bring the most diplomatic/military force wins.  If someone doesn't think that is fair than tough. ;)

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Cyberhippie: What's more, it's a little hypocritical for Bush to do a whole bunch of things unilaterally and then say another country cannot.
You know I wonder if the Oxford Dictionary will change unilateral to the new meaning of anything done without the support of the UN or France, Germany, and Russia.  The real definition of unilateral sure doesn’t fit your usage.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 15 April 2004 - 02:05 PM.

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#53 Godeskian

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 02:53 PM

rubbish

i wasn't talking about Iraq CJ, i was talking purely about George W. Bush

but then, you never asked what i was referring to did you? you just assumed.

and for reference

www.dictionary.com

1. Of, on, relating to, involving, or affecting only one side: “a unilateral advantage in defense” (New Republic).
2. Performed or undertaken by only one side: unilateral disarmament.
3. Obligating only one of two or more parties, nations, or persons, as a contract or an agreement.
4. Emphasizing or recognizing only one side of a subject.
5. Having only one side.
6. Tracing the lineage of one parent only: a unilateral genealogy.
Botany. Having leaves, flowers, or other parts on one side only.

It was option 2 i was accusing President Bush of

Edited by Cyberhippie, 15 April 2004 - 02:54 PM.

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#54 Guldorak

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 03:15 PM

Kevin being of French-Canadian descent makes me particularly aware of "negative" attitudes towards people of Francophone backgrounds. Since I have had several negative experiences in my life due solely to the fact that I was French-Canadian.
Since the start of the war on Iraq the increase in French bashing in the English language media, and by that I include Internet BBS’s, has grown to phenomenal proportion. Oddly enough the same venom is rarely directed towards Russia and to a lesser extent Germany. It leads me to believe that the defining characteristic for the hatred is of course the fact that they are French hence the Francophobe and or bigots. Now before anyone flies off the handle I am not speaking specifically about anyone hear right now.

That said I believe my earlier judgment to be true. The language used in certain posts in my mind confirms the attitude behind the keyboard. I may be wrong since no one is perfect and will I will reevaluate my judgment upon further evidence.

The bottom line is I wish that China would not acquire advance weaponry from any country but in the long run it will manage to develop them itself. The numbers of engineers produce in China per year is massive.  So it essence it is just cutting the technological gap by a few years.

Anyway as to Israel they can certainly ill afford to upset the US since there would be a likely hood of losing all that money given/lent to it by the US

Edited by Guldorak, 15 April 2004 - 03:15 PM.


#55 Delvo

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 03:56 PM

Cyberhippie, on Apr 15 2004, 11:30 AM, said:

What's more, it's a little hypocritical for Bush to do a whole bunch of things unilaterally and then say another country cannot.
Bush said that? It's more believable that he simply said that if they choose to do this, it's going against the USA and the USA won't like it. That's not the same thing as saying they can not, may not, or must not. The difference is like the difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom from unpleasant reactions by other people to your speech.



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