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Soldiers. Noble Warrior and Soulless Pawn.

Soldiers Noble Warrior Soulless Pawn Culture War

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#21 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:50 AM

^ :welldone:  Zack!
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#22 jon3831

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:51 AM

:welldone: Mr. Stentz
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#23 Josh

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:52 AM

Hell, might as well join the club. ;)

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#24 eryn

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:53 AM

What Zack said.

I don't mind if you believe in what you do. Good for you. But do not insult the people who are defending your right to believe in that very same thing.

Edited by mystic, 12 April 2004 - 01:06 AM.

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#25 Shalamar

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:54 AM

I think Fade that you ought to take a good close look at the country that gives you the right, (not the priviledge- but the right ) to have such toughts.  Others have and will continue to hazzard their lives to keep yours free.

Edited by Shalamar, 12 April 2004 - 01:11 AM.

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#26 Lord Ravensburg

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 01:05 AM

I am a vet.  Do you have the gall to call me soulless, F2B?

#27 ZipperInt

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 01:50 AM

I wasn't going to post, but here it is:

  Without soldiers, none of us would be able to post on this messageboard, watch TV and whine about whatever it is we like to whine about - hell, most of us wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for the sacrifices made by soldiers.
  Soldiers are the first and sometimes the only line of defense against people who do not share a 'higher road', philosophy, Fade - I'm sure a good number of soldiers past, present and future would rather there be no war, no killing and no need for the work that they do, but the reality is that they are a necessary and vital part in any sizeable population of human beings. It is true that some soldiers have done difficult and horrible things in the past, whether following orders or acting on their own behalf, but to paint the entire group as soulless killers is mind-boggling and makes me wonder if I'm actually engaging in a real discussion.

That being said, I suggest you to re-evaluate your beliefs about soldiers, and perhaps criticize the genetic predispostion of our species to kill one another, rather than attack those who are most likely the bravest among us.

EDIT: Removing something that isn't needed.

Edited by ZipperInt, 12 April 2004 - 01:59 AM.

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#28 Norville

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 01:59 AM

Fade... I attempt to live by Quaker and Buddhist principles, and, frankly, usually fail (in my opinion), but... I resent the need for war, and argued against this war, but since this war is quite well underway and not about to get better (judging from the last week or so), I tend to switch into a way of thinking that's more like "Since we got this war, let's try to end it sharply and quickly, and get as many people out alive as possible." I'm weird, in that I'm always trying to balance the pacifist and the warrior in me -- and there's a lot of war in me, despite my desire for peace.

I don't like war, but have never blamed it on the soldiers (unless they do inexcusable things like My Lai in Vietnam) -- why don't you blame the politicians who send them out to fight? I have compassion for what soldiers go through and want them to remain alive if possible.

Quote

I suggest you to re-evaluate your beliefs about soldiers, and perhaps criticize the genetic predispostion of our species to kill one another, rather than attack those who are most likely the bravest among us.

Agreed.
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#29 Kevin Street

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 02:01 AM

I think we can all agree that Fade_2_Bolivion's remarks are very extreme. It seems unlikely that anyone could endorse the position that killing is wrong in all circumstances. If someone put my family or friends in danger, I'd do whatever was necessary to save them. Soldiers do that for us; they make the hard decisions and do the difficult things, so our lives are easier. They should be commended, not denigrated.

#30 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 03:45 AM

MuseZack, on Apr 12 2004, 05:45 AM, said:

This is silly.  A soldier per se is morally neutral.  Soldiers threw open the gates of Dachau and saved the world from fascism.  Other soldiers massacred civilians at My Lai.  Soldiers do what their political leaders tell them to.  Blaming soldiers for bad foreign policy is like blaming oxygen for a forest fire.
My father, the career Army officer, would argue that a professional American soldier, in particular, is better than morally neutral.  He would tell you that the modern American soldier is a highly trained professional well-versed (possibly even too well versed) on how to fight an ethical war.  That having a professional military elevates America as we have carefully trained our troops to fight the best possible kind of war in difficult circumstances.  He would tell you that professional soldiers fight a cleaner, less brutal war than amateurs/draftees.

Amateurs use civilians as cover.

Amateurs don't wear uniforms, thus exposing civilians to attack because combatants cannot be properly identified.

Amateurs hide in religious or historical structures.

Amateurs kidnap civilians, rape women, commit autrocities.

Our American professional soldiers, volunteers all, have dedicated themselves to protecting our country and carrying out our foreign policy in as professional a manner as their opponents allow them.  Sadly, faced with an amateur resistance with no qualms about violating the rules of war, our armed forces have little choice but to protect themselves and do their best to neutralize the enemy with as little collateral damage as possible.

So if you don't want a mosque blown up, don't use it as a fire base.

If you don't want professional soldiers shooting at your civilians, wear a uniform.

Reports before the war in Iraq said very clearly that Sadaam Hussien and his Baathist party were planning on following the model of Vietnam, to wage a non-convential war against American forces.  The Iraqis would be well advised to actually study what happened to the Viet Cong and to Vietnam as a result of their decision to wage a guerilla war.  Over 1 million Vietnamese dead.  An infrastructure and economy that are only now beginning to recover.  Devastation of hundreds of irreplacible cultural monuments and natural environments (the Imperial City of Hue for example).  An entire generation of Vietnamese killed.  It can be very well argued that it's far better to lose a conventional war against America than to win a guerilla one.

I personally don't support the decision that put our professional men and women in uniform in Iraq.  But that's politics.  HOWEVER, I fully support our troops.  I deeply admire their dedication, commitment, and courage.  Why a war is fought and how a war is fought are two different matters.  While I may not agree with the WHY, I fully support our military in HOW they are conducting themselves in this battle.  Our soldiers are heroes, plain and simple.

Editted to add:  BTW Fade, here's your donut.  I hope you like glazed.   :p

Edited by Robert Hewitt Wolfe, 12 April 2004 - 04:03 AM.

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#31 Shalamar

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 04:29 AM

Quote

My father, the career Army officer, would argue that a professional American soldier, in particular, is better than morally neutral. He would tell you that the modern American soldier is a highly trained professional well-versed (possibly even too well versed) on how to fight an ethical war. That having a professional military elevates America as we have carefully trained our troops to fight the best possible kind of war in difficult circumstances. He would tell you that professional soldiers fight a cleaner, less brutal war than amateurs/draftees.

Quote

Our soldiers are heroes, plain and simple.

Thank you Mr. Wolfe.

My father was accepted into the United State Naval Academy -Annapolis- and would have graduated from there had not health and history interveined. He has always lived his life by the code of conduct and ethics they seek to instill in every cadet. I have always evaluated every soldier I've ever met - and I've met quite a few- by him. I am happy to say they have all measured up to my father.

Soldiers are only human and I will say- that as in any group there are the proverbial 'bad apples' out there, but they are NOT in any way the norm, much less the majority.

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The Naval Academy has a deep and abiding commitment to the moral development of its midshipmen and to instilling the Naval service core values of HONOR, COURAGE, and COMMITMENT. The goal of the character development division is to integrate the moral, ethical, and character development of midshipmen across every aspect of the Naval Academy experience. The integrated character development program is the single most important feature that distinguishes the Naval Academy from other educational institutions and officer commissioning sources.

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"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country; professional growth throughout a career as an officer in the United States Army; and a lifetime of selfless service to the nation."

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"Our Core Values, Integrity first, Service before self and Excellence in all we do, set the common standard for conduct across the Air Force. These values inspire the trust which provides the unbreakable bond that unifies the force. We must practice them ourselves and expect no less from those with whom we serve."

The first is from Annapolis, the Second West Point, the third the Air Force Academy.

The Soldiers Creed, taught in Basic training:

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I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.


and the Code of Conduct part VI:

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I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

The Soldiers Code

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I am an American soldier - a protector of the greatest nation on earth - sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

I will treat others with dignity and respect and expect others to do the same.

I will honor my Country, the Army, my unit and my fellow soldiers by living the Army Values.

No matter what situation I am in, I will never do anything for pleasure, profit, or personal safety which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my Country.

Lastly, I am proud of my Country and its flag. I want to look back and say that I am proud to have served my Country as a soldier.

Edited by Shalamar, 12 April 2004 - 04:35 AM.

The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

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#32 Ilphi

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 04:38 AM

Raise a hand for someone else who finds the idea of donning a uniform somehow rids a person of humanity to be deeply offensive.

My grandfather served throughout the entire war, first in Norway, later in India ready to invade Japan. My uncle went ashore on the beaches of D-Day. In World War I three members of my family are buried within a mile of each other. One of my grandmothers cooked for the army; another operated search lights during the blitz. My great-grandfather served in the Afghan Wars. If you go back far enough there was possibly a member of my family at Trafalgar.

My brother just got accepted into the police force; has his humanity disappeared too?
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#33 Delvo

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:22 AM

Does anyone else notice that before F2B started speechifying, the firs tpost in this thread was dressed as a question, which F2B later started saying he had not doubts about after all? This isn't controversial debate/commentary; it's just trolling. And so is every other post F2B has made.

#34 Brynhilde

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:26 AM

I am a dedicated pacifist (from a Buddhist family, although I have never practised myself) and I have to disagree with you. Although, in an ideal world there would be no wars and no conflict, and therefore no need for soldiers to resolve them, we do not live in an ideal world. For there to be no war there would also be no peace, so the two must be there, as must the soldiers. Noble warrior? Yes. Soulless pawn? No.

And also, and I really hate to bring religion into it, I thought that compassion and understanding of all viewpoints was one of the most important Buddhist principals...
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#35 Anakam

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 07:33 AM

Ilphi, on Apr 12 2004, 10:36 AM, said:

Raise a hand for someone else who finds the idea of donning a uniform somehow rids a person of humanity to be deeply offensive.
Ditto.

Both my grandfathers served in the military during WWII.

My uncle joined the military (Army) during Vietnam, though thankfully he was never sent over there.

Another uncle was in the Navy, IIRC.

I have a cousin who is a police officer and used to be in the National Guard, with every possibility of being called to a rather nasty combat situation.

I also work with someone who spent 11 years in the military, and he is a VERY decent guy to work with.  Of course, he's also got some pretty randy stories.... :p

So anyway.... :p
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#36 Anakam

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 08:01 AM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on Apr 12 2004, 09:43 AM, said:

Editted to add:  BTW Fade, here's your donut.  I hope you like glazed.   :p
*giggles*

Sorry, missed this on the first read and just had to admire it a bit. ;)

#37 ElJay

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 09:09 AM

Another 'souless pawn' checking in.  I won't bother to repeat what others before me have said more eloquently than I could.  I will simply ask F2B to re-read his Greek history--specifically, the battle of Thermopylae, then ask himself if Leonidas and his Spartans were 'souless pawns' or noble warriors.
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#38 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 10:48 AM

Quote

And also, and I really hate to bring religion into it, I thought that compassion and understanding of all viewpoints was one of the most important Buddhist principals...

Others have responded very calmly and ably to the original post. Since Fade2's been suspended from OT for a week, I will not add to that since he cannot respond at this time.

However,  as a practicing Buddhist myself, I have to say that Brynhilde is indeed correct. Compassion and understanding are the cornerstones of Buddhist thought.

Referring to anyone as "soulless" or a killing machine does not fit with that-because it belies the fundamental tenet of Buddhism which is that each human being has enlightenment within them. The struggle of a Buddhist is to reveal that enlightenment and act on it in concrete ways.

Ro

#39 szhismine

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 09:21 PM

Quote

When a soldier willingly enters into a contract saying it's okay to kill people then they are no longer just like 'you' and 'me'. They forfeit their humanity in the process.

you know, that wasn't always a choice. i'm positive there have been some wars in the past where the soldiers didn't want to fight, but they had to. either they were blackmailed or forced by their government or they simply wanted to protect their family and country. nowadays it's a choice, in America and most other countries. but how do we know that the Iraqi soldiers weren't forced into "contracts"?

and if they did willingly sign up to kill and defend their country, it's because they believe what they're doing is right. the American and British soldiers in Iraq think that what they're doing is right. the Iraqi soldiers think that what they're doing is right. i don't think either of them is right because i never supported the war in Iraq, but i'm not saying they're wrong. there's no right or wrong in war, IMHO. they're doing what they think is right, if it was their choice to fight.
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#40 Caithness

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 09:37 PM

God is very militant; just look at the book of Joshua, Kings or Exodus.
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