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Dutoit on gender and the BEST take down EVER!!!

Culture Masculinity Gender Roles

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#1 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:22 PM

Okay so I'm going to be posting a couple of links here.  But before I do I want to warn you that both the article in question (which I only link to for context and which I also find offensive) and the rebuttal contain lots of profanity.  In fact, I actually ran this by tptb of ExIsle before posting it.  I'm not going to specifically quote either in order to minimize the potential for exposure to what some might find offensive.  

Here is the link to the detoit essay.

http://www.kimdutoit...ys.php?id=P2327

Here is the link to the BEST take down ever!  I mean, I, like want to date this guy!!!   :love:

http://philosoraptor...841038906562042  :)

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 April 2004 - 03:44 PM.

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#2 sierraleone

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:26 PM

I was uanble to open the first link....? I've got the second one open though, and I got the link, I think, to the first, on the second link's page, and it works.

Edited by sierraleone, 18 April 2004 - 03:26 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#3 MuseZack

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:40 PM

Can you imagine the crap that a boy named Kim du Toit must have gotten in the locker room as a kid?  Methinks someone's trying to overcompensate...
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#4 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:40 PM

Hmm..  Just tried the first link again and it works fine for me... :unsure:
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#5 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:41 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 18 2004, 01:38 PM, said:

Can you imagine the crap that a boy named Kim du Toit must have gotten in the locker room as a kid?  Methinks someone's trying to overcompensate...
OMG!!!!!!!!  Zack that is JUST what (well one of the many things) I thought as I read this stuff.   :lol:  :devil:  :lol:

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 April 2004 - 03:41 PM.

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#6 GiGi

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:44 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 01:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to the BEST take down ever!  I mean, I, like want to date this guy!!!   :love:


Lil
Whew!  Just got through that all.   :eek4:

I agree you have picked the better of the two, I would date him also, if I was dating that is.  :blush:
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#7 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:45 PM

GiGi, on Apr 18 2004, 01:42 PM, said:

I agree you have picked the better of the two, I would date him also, if I was dating that is.  :blush:
Hey, keep yer mitts off!  You already got a great guy!!!!!!!!  :p

:hehe:  :love:  :hehe:
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#8 Ilphi

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:46 PM

Thanks for the links, Lil, I enjoyed the second one ;)

... and in a similar, more light-hearted tone, here is Maddox's tribute to real men . (Has some language)

Edited by Ilphi, 18 April 2004 - 03:47 PM.

Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#9 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:48 PM

Heh Ilphi I read the rebuttal last night and was alternately crying and breathless with laughter it was so hot!   Thanks for the link!

Lil
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#10 Ilphi

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:50 PM

I had to admit I just gave up on the article being coherent after reading "Of course he was bound to get that reaction -- and most especially from the Press in Europe, because the process of male pussification Over There is almost complete.
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:56 PM

^  Yeah the guy really is out there isn't he?  It's difficult for me to believe that there are people who really think like this but I guess the existence of groups like the KKK proves that there are... :wacko:  :(  :wacko:
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#12 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 03:59 PM

Satire:
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura, satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis enough -- more at SAD
1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

From Merriam-Webster Online.

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 18 April 2004 - 04:00 PM.

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#13 Delvo

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:00 PM

Very long, largely because the author's one of those people who can't stick to a subject and had to keep drifting off-topic for shots at Bush... But turning something not-exactly-related into an excuse for shots at Bush is really nothing special or unusual, nor is the blend of truth and lies involved therein. It's just the way some people are.

But more interestingly, even when sticking to the subject, the rebuttal's author had a real case to make but weakened it by trying to make too many points in total like it was a scoring contest, thus including some really weak or false points along with the good ones. Another way the rebuttal weakened its own points was by complaining about this fictional dominance of right-wing agendas in this country; when one is writing an article claiming someone else sounds whiny for complaining about liberalism's dominance of a certain area of culture, even if he WAS, it's hypocritical to respond by going into an even bigger and wider-scoping paranoid wine yourself, especially one that's unnecessary to what's supposed to be your point.

And I didn't read through the whole thing so I don't know if there were missed opportunities to make more valid points against this guy, although I doubt it based on the length and the play-by-play nature of it, but what kind of writer picks on the guy for a wussy French last name (DuToit) but misses the opportunity to pick on him for having a girl's first name? :wacko: Shyeesh, having a girl's first name could even be related to the whole point, since it might have something to do with how he got the way he is!

Edited by Delvo, 18 April 2004 - 04:31 PM.


#14 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:04 PM

Rommie's Ronin, on Apr 18 2004, 01:57 PM, said:

Satire:
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura, satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis enough -- more at SAD
1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

From Merriam-Webster Online.
Erm...did you have a particular reason for posting this definition?  Are you, for example, trying to contend that Dutoit's essay can be chalked up to satire?   :unsure:
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#15 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:07 PM

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".  Pretty sure that would make the author a guy....or am I missing something?   :unsure:
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#16 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:07 PM

It could be. <shrugs> Sure reads like one.

BTW, in regards to his name, DuToit is from South Africa and fought against the Nationalist governments there in riots.  Just some info picked up in some of his other essays.
"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#17 Delvo

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:30 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 03:05 PM, said:

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".  Pretty sure that would make the author a guy....or am I missing something?   :unsure:
No, I missed something... or caught something that wasn't really there... then I realized it and went back to gender-neutralize my post... not that I'm a participant in a conspiracy to neutralize genders in general, of course...

#18 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:33 PM

Delvo, on Apr 18 2004, 02:28 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 03:05 PM, said:

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".  Pretty sure that would make the author a guy....or am I missing something?   :unsure:
No, I missed something...
Ahhh....okay then.  

Quote

not that I'm a participant in a conspiracy to neutralize genders in general, of course...

Heaven forfend!  ;)

Lil
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#19 MuseZack

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:37 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 09:05 PM, said:

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".  Pretty sure that would make the author a guy....or am I missing something?   :unsure:
Given that Winston Smith is the protagonist of Orwell's 1984, the author could be anyone, of either gender.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#20 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:39 PM

Aww Zack!!!!!!!  But I wanna DATE this person!!!!!!!!  :p

:wideeyed:
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