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Dutoit on gender and the BEST take down EVER!!!

Culture Masculinity Gender Roles

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#41 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 11:45 AM

yeah norville wait until you have time to savor the second one because it's the one that really made me want to post this.  The first one is pure garbage as far as I'm concerned.
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#42 Norville

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 11:49 AM

Quote

I'm not sure who's more laughable: him or someone calling themselves the Philosoraptor.

Actually, I really liked that pun; I looked up to heaven and groaned for mercy. ;)
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#43 Anna

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:13 PM

And I found them both to be full of buzz phrases from the left and right and the same old, tired BS. Wake me when there's something other than the far right and left trying to make "points" against the other. I find none of this particularly useful.

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#44 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:23 PM

^  Well I get tired of the rhetoric too but sometimes something comes along that's just too entertaining to pass up.  ;)  This one did it for me although in terms "usefulness" I guess it depends what you mean.  I found it useful in that it amused the hell out of me.  Will it solve world problems?  Unlikely but I never claimed it would either.;)
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#45 Anna

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:33 PM

Okaaaaay. I guess I missed the point of the post. My bad. Both just made me want to throw up, my mileage must vary.

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#46 Drew

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:46 PM

Okay, I'm caught up now. :cool:

Like the "philosoraptor," I come away from the DuToit piece with mixed feelings. I think he does have some good points in there, but they're muddied by his boorishness. I think we do downplay certain "masculine" virtues and promote "feminine" ones. (I put those terms in quotes because they aren't the most accurate terms, but they do the job of communicating the sense of it.)

But DuToit errs in making an imaginary gender-divide. The virtues of courage, honor, strength, . . . these are human--not male--virtures, and both men and women need to cultivate them. Likewise, kindness, gentleness, patience, and wisdom.

But I wouldn't say we've been "feminized." (Or perhaps, that this isn't the real issue here.) Our problem as a culture is that we approach everything with ironic detachment. Call it the "Seinfeldification" of the culture. No one talks seriously about courage (or any virtue) anymore. And those who try are given a condescending pat on the head and sent back to Kansas. Because it's so much easier to make virtue the punchline to a joke than to treat it as something worth having. And afterward we can all go out for drinks and discuss "The Apprentice."

Edited by Drew, 19 April 2004 - 01:00 PM.

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#47 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:48 PM

RPITA, on Apr 19 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

And I found them both to be full of buzz phrases from the left and right and the same old, tired BS. Wake me when there's something other than the far right and left trying to make "points" against the other. I find none of this particularly useful.

Anna
Yeah, "same old tired BS" pretty much summed up both of them for me too.  Good call.

I still think DeToit's site is a great big jab, kinda like landoverbaptist.org except not near as funny.   :rolleyes:
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#48 Drew

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:51 PM

Landover Baptist is not funny.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#49 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:58 PM

Drew, on Apr 19 2004, 10:44 AM, said:

Our problem as a culture is that we approach everything with ironic detachment. Call it the "Seinfeldification" of the culture.
Drew I think that pretty much hits the nail right on the head.
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#50 QueenTiye

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:03 PM

I read as much as I could of the rebuttal, but it just rambled on too long.  I read the Dutoit thing.

I actually agree with much of Dutoit's article, but I am totally blown away by his misogyny.  The man seems to hate women.  And - he seems to glory in the less glorious aspects of "manly behavior."  In short, I think he's a pig.  I don't agree at all with the "boys will be boys" mentality he displays, but I do think that there's nothing wrong with MEN being MEN.  I totally agree with the whole queer eye/straight guy thing - I find the concept offensive, and insulting to straight men.  (And I say that without implying ANYTHING at all about gay men.  But the idea that gay men need to teach straight men how to be better in some way is just... bad.  I wonder if there would ever be a straight eye for the queer guy show?  How offensive would THAT be?)  I find it offensive in the extreme the implication that men are pigs and this is a good thing.  I'm a big admirer of men who display the qualities that are associated with "stereotypical" male behavior.  Bravado is a good thing in my book, and I like surliness on a guy.  That's not the same thing as nastiness, meanness, crassness... and I gotta say - no man would ever feel so "castrated" by his wife's tongue in cheek joke/insult as to instruct his children right off the bat on how to be a j@ck@ss... A "real man" would simply state for the record that he didn't appreciate the insult, joke or no (if that's how he felt).  I kept expecting Dutoit to say "Hey, I'da hauled off and slapped the b*tch" or something else equally appalling...

I kinda get it that he (Dutoit) is going with the Chris Rock style of humor to make his overall point...  but, truth be told, I'm not a fan of Chris Rock either.  So I guess I'll pass on reading any more Dutoit, and I'll make my small contribution to the balancing of this equation by expressing my appreciation for guys who are determined to be guys, and decent ones to boot, whenever I get the chance.

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#51 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:09 PM

I really enjoy queer eye for the straight guy but it's not for everybody.  My father finds it offensive in the extreme while my mother thinks it's HI larious.  It's not must see television for me or anything but whenever I do catch it I find myself enjoying it (and picking up a tip or two to boot).
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#52 prolog

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:20 PM

Jid, on Apr 19 2004, 01:25 AM, said:

^ So, be a bit more open minded? :angel: ;)

And honestly, it really wasn't a fair fight.  The second I saw the picture of du Toit aiming a pistol at the top of the webpage, my internal alarms started screaming "Danger Jid Robinson!" repeatedly. (and if my brain had robotic arms, they'd have been flailing wildly by this point to.)
Yeah, du Toit's the very definition of a Texas gun nut (nothing wrong with Texas, and nothing wrong with gun enthusiasts, but the two together...).  The man owns an obscene number of guns, and has thousands of rounds of ammo of various calibers.  He's also has a screwed up world-view, believing Republicans to be the upholders of all that is Good and Virtuous ™, while anyone marginally to the left of him is Commie Pinko Liberal Scum.  I have nothing against believing Republicans to be moral beacons (though I disagree), but I do have a problem with people throwing around words like "commie", "liberal", "pinko", etc., as was discussed a while back.  Anyway, I found the essay fairly offensive, which shouldn't be surprising given my general left-leaning philosophies.  Mostly his tangential commentary; the basic premise was okay.  It was just caught up in a disgusting amount of mysogny and homophobia.

But the other essay wasn't a lot better.  Even more tangential than du Toit's, it meandered around attacking Bush, insulting du Toit (though after reading his essay, it's understandable), etc.  Also, the writing didn't flow very well, not that du Toit's was any better.

Edited by prolog, 19 April 2004 - 01:25 PM.


#53 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:27 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 19 2004, 12:01 PM, said:

I read as much as I could of the rebuttal, but it just rambled on too long.  I read the Dutoit thing.

I actually agree with much of Dutoit's article, but I am totally blown away by his misogyny.  The man seems to hate women.  And - he seems to glory in the less glorious aspects of "manly behavior."  In short, I think he's a pig.  I don't agree at all with the "boys will be boys" mentality he displays, but I do think that there's nothing wrong with MEN being MEN.  I totally agree with the whole queer eye/straight guy thing - I find the concept offensive, and insulting to straight men.  (And I say that without implying ANYTHING at all about gay men.  But the idea that gay men need to teach straight men how to be better in some way is just... bad.  I wonder if there would ever be a straight eye for the queer guy show?  How offensive would THAT be?)  I find it offensive in the extreme the implication that men are pigs and this is a good thing.  I'm a big admirer of men who display the qualities that are associated with "stereotypical" male behavior.  Bravado is a good thing in my book, and I like surliness on a guy.  That's not the same thing as nastiness, meanness, crassness... and I gotta say - no man would ever feel so "castrated" by his wife's tongue in cheek joke/insult as to instruct his children right off the bat on how to be a j@ck@ss... A "real man" would simply state for the record that he didn't appreciate the insult, joke or no (if that's how he felt).  I kept expecting Dutoit to say "Hey, I'da hauled off and slapped the b*tch" or something else equally appalling...

I kinda get it that he (Dutoit) is going with the Chris Rock style of humor to make his overall point...  but, truth be told, I'm not a fan of Chris Rock either.  So I guess I'll pass on reading any more Dutoit, and I'll make my small contribution to the balancing of this equation by expressing my appreciation for guys who are determined to be guys, and decent ones to boot, whenever I get the chance.

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HM07
HM, therein lies a problem, and you basically explained it well.  Despite DuToit's lameassed attitude, he hits points that others can agree with if they could only disengage themselves from the other 90% of material he wrote.  It's hard to approach issues he and others bring up without being labled a "misogynist" "racist" "gunslinger" or whatever.  We're too quick to attach labels and not quick enough to read for substance.

And while DuToit comes off as a jerk, "Philosoraptor" comes off as a prick who likes to sit around and find other viewpoints to attack for the sake of reading his own words..  Neither score very well in my book.
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#54 tennyson

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:19 PM

Thank Rommie's Ronin and QT and Anna and Drew and others, this is the kind of commentary on the articles that I was shooting for. While both of them had some valid points in the morass they were expressed in such a polemical, contintous and offensive manner (as well as being badly written and in the seond case meandering from a literary perspective) that they didn't manage to express anything useful at all.
The first guy expresses an attitude that I have tried to fight all my life with its attitude towards women and men are only one certain thing and so on, while the other one just seemed a disjointed mass that was rarely on target and kept making cheapshot asides without presenting any evidence for them. Niether of them were things I enjoy to experience.
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#55 the 'Hawk

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:23 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 05:05 PM, said:

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".
The same Winston Smith who's the lead character in Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four", perchance?

Screen names are fun!

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#56 gadfly

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:25 PM

Quote

Yeah the guy really is out there isn't he? It's difficult for me to believe that there are people who really think like this but I guess the existence of groups like the KKK proves that there are...

You should meet one of brothers-in-law.  He's exactly like this guy in his philosophy except that my sister's husband, why o why, is from Austria, don't tell duToit but that's in Europe, and he's short, about 5'2 so tries to make up for it in what he thinks are ultra masculine ways.  He adores what he thinks is Texas ways, I'm in and have lived in Texas for the past 20 years, but he idolizes the stereotype not the reality.


I was also nearly convinced I knew "Winston Smith" too.  He sounds very much like a friend of mine.  He argues the same way and has much the same beliefs.  The "not owning a television" bit  is the only difference.  My friend loves his Tivo and his home entertainment system.  He's also one of the most well-informed people I know.


And the bottom line is that I agree with Drew's assessment.

Edited by gadfly, 19 April 2004 - 02:26 PM.


#57 the 'Hawk

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:25 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 18 2004, 05:35 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2004, 09:05 PM, said:

Delvo it says the author of the rebuttal is "Winston Smith".  Pretty sure that would make the author a guy....or am I missing something?   :unsure:
Given that Winston Smith is the protagonist of Orwell's 1984, the author could be anyone, of either gender.
Zack beat me to it.

That's what I get for posting too fast. :)

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#58 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:28 PM

See I didn't think it was disjointed at all.  I thought it was clear, biting, made excellent points, and exposed detoit for the pig he is.  I'm still trying to figure out how to quote from it without the profanity and okay I'll concede *that* point.  All the profanity is not necessary.


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#59 the 'Hawk

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:34 PM

^ Yeah, but profanity sets the tone. He's cussin' this guy out hardcore. It only follows that a cussing-out include some cussin'.

More to the damn point, it was kind of freakin' ubiquitous.

But that was serious good readin'.

For the record, however, we all know that being a man has nothing to do with what you perceive and everything to do with how you represent yourself. And while the brilliant nature of the deconstruction speaks for itself.... well.... it's not exactly academic in either case.

I liked it so much better when this kind of thing was settled in parking lots, not in blogs. Why, you ask? Not because "boys will be boys", but because neither one of them would've got through a paragraph-- trial by combat is certainly a lot less time-intensive. ;)

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#60 Shalamar

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:50 PM

Prolog writes:

Quote

Yeah, du Toit's the very definition of a Texas gun nut (nothing wrong with Texas, and nothing wrong with gun enthusiasts, but the two together...).

Hi Prolog, you just hit this born and bred Texans's hot button.  I really object to your stereo typing.

I love guns, Jid and a few others here can tell you so.  And sorry but his views can come from anywhere not just Texas, and I dare say he does not fall in with a majority of gun loving Texans.

And what I actually find most offensive is his assertions about men. As if men are natural slobs, naturally insensitive, naturally mean spirited and aggressive...He does a far greater disservice to the male of the species than he does the female...it's just subtler... ( and women can be just as big slobs, aggressive, and insensitive - and this is not some feminist upsurge trying to be as much as a man - this is the simple observation of nearly 50 years of living ) Both sexes have everything in near equal proportion...it's just what tends to get brought out due to the society we live in .

or maybe I see outside the box far too easily.

and as far as the rise of governmental control in our lives...thats because we the people have let this happen. We've gotten lazy, I think, and want to be taken care of...

Edited by Shalamar, 19 April 2004 - 02:52 PM.

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