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A Vietnam-era editorial

Media Vietnam era Op-ed

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#41 Douglas

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 05:19 PM

A quick point on the wording of separation questions.  In the last Quebec referendum most of those who voted yes to seperation believed that they would still send MPs to Ottawa, and still get equalization payments thanks to the separatist's campaign.  If the question were worded clearly, and the public educated in the consequences, only the hard-core Quebecois would want to seperate.

Edited by Douglas, 22 April 2004 - 05:21 PM.


#42 the 'Hawk

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 05:26 PM

^ Actually, that's a good point--- I don't even think the PQ knew what they were voting for.

The sovereignty-association idea floated as a compromise when the PQ realized just how much they stood to lose by full-fledged separation is really not a compromise at all. It's just Confederation with Quebec pouting. After all, you can't be a sovereign country *and* be part of another's government process. You're either in or you're out.

And I think the same may become true in short order in Alberta or BC. I don't doubt for a second that either country could stand alone. However, there's issues they're not necessarily taking into account--- like the legal status of treaties, their portion of the national debt, questions of their place within NAFTA, and so on. After all, we're talking about a full divorce--- with the same house and family in the next room after the fact.

Which is part of why I don't think any of this will ever happen. It'd be suicide for any politician to attempt to preside over actual and complete sovereignty by a former province. There's simply too many variables and too many hurt feelings for it to be a smooth transition. It'd mean a Canadian version of a civil war ---no money for troops, but plenty of hideous fighting with the chief victims being the economy, the international reputation of the country, and the people who I consider to be the majority of any given population---- those who don't give a damn about politics as long as it doesn't affect them.

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#43 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:19 AM

the'Hawk, on Apr 22 2004, 03:01 PM, said:

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 22 2004, 05:47 PM, said:

I would say a seperation referendum would get a bare minimum of 25%.  That's nothing to sneeze at.  A lot of folks would jump at the opportunity to land a haymaker on Ottawa's chin.  Which would move it beyond 35%
Quebec got 49.6% and they're still part of Confederation.

What's your point?

:cool:


Posted Image

The point is rather obvious.

The feds cater to Quebec.  We'd like some of that.      :alert:  :alert:  :alert:
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#44 Guldorak

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 07:03 AM

Every Quebecois of French ancenstery is a separtist at one point in his life.  
Quebec gets no more and no less from Ottawa than a province of its magnitude should.

#45 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 10:43 AM

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 05:01 AM, said:

Every Quebecois of French ancenstery is a separtist at one point in his life. 
Quebec gets no more and no less from Ottawa than a province of its magnitude should.
Are you being that arrogant just to stir the pot?

A province of Quebec's "magnitude" should be contributing to Canada, not sucking.


http://www.canoe.ca/.../23/432651.html

http://www.canada.co...68-3c1e32c8c280

Perfect timing.  These two articles help hammer home some of my points.

Apathy.....  Ignorance...... Myths

These are three of the reasons Canada is sliding into the toilet.

As I thought,  $9 Billion a year is the current amount that Alberta is paying out.

One thing I had forgotten, of the 8 "have-not" provinces, Quebec gets half of all equalization payments.

In the run-up to the '95 referendum, I recall a survey that showed most Quebekers thought they paid more into Canada than they got back.  How do that many people end up being so misinformed?

Why on earth does Canada have 8 have-not provinces?

Frankly, at most, we should have three and those three would be the smallest in area.

Your typical Canada province is bigger than Germany, bigger than France, bigger than Italy, bigger than Tiawan, bigger than South Korea, bigger than Japan........

Edited by Mr.Calgary, 23 April 2004 - 10:47 AM.

Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#46 eryn

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 10:50 AM

Thanks for those links Mr. C. :)

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#47 Guldorak

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 10:51 AM

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 23 2004, 03:41 PM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 05:01 AM, said:

Every Quebecois of French ancenstery is a separtist at one point in his life. 
Quebec gets no more and no less from Ottawa than a province of its magnitude should.
Are you being that arrogant just to stir the pot?

A province of Quebec's "magnitude" should be contributing to Canada, not sucking.


http://www.canoe.ca/.../23/432651.html

http://www.canada.co...68-3c1e32c8c280

Perfect timing.  These two articles help hammer home some of my points.

Apathy.....  Ignorance...... Myths

These are three of the reasons Canada is sliding into the toilet.

As I thought,  $9 Billion a year is the current amount that Alberta is paying out.

One thing I had forgotten, of the 8 "have-not" provinces, Quebec gets half of all equalization payments.

In the run-up to the '95 referendum, I recall a survey that showed most Quebekers thought they paid more into Canada than they got back.  How do that many people end up being so misinformed?

Why on earth does Canada have 8 have-not provinces?

Frankly, at most, we should have three and those three would be the smallest in area.

Your typical Canada province is bigger than Germany, bigger than France, bigger than Italy, bigger than Tiawan, bigger than South Korea, bigger than Japan........
Actually I am just responding to your arrogance and something more which I won't say since I don't care to be banned.

From one of your articles

Quote

Canada's equalization programs reward failure and punish success. When the Quebec separatists destroyed the Quebec economy by chasing half of Montreal's anglophone population out of the province and most of the head offices of national corporations, no worries. Ontario, B.C. and Alberta were there to pick up the slack.

No one chased them away. After years of dictating  financial policy, the Anglophone business establishment  turned tail and ran when they came to the realization that they would have to let the French portion of the population a say in those very same policies. Not all just a very good portion.

Edited by Guldorak, 23 April 2004 - 10:59 AM.


#48 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 10:58 AM

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 08:49 AM, said:

Actually I am just responding to your arrogance and something more which I won't say since I don't care to be banned.

Indeed.  . :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I've actually got some hard facts to back me up.....you've got what?? :whistle:

Shame on me!  A Canadian who actually thinks Canada could (and should) be a hell of a lot better than it is.

Why can't I just accept the staus quo? :blush:  :blush:  :blush:

:devil:

Edited by Mr.Calgary, 23 April 2004 - 11:00 AM.

Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#49 Guldorak

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 11:05 AM

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 23 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 08:49 AM, said:

Actually I am just responding to your arrogance and something more which I won't say since I don't care to be banned.

Indeed.  . :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I've actually got some hard facts to back me up.....you've got what?? :whistle:

Shame on me!  A Canadian who actually thinks Canada could (and should) be a hell of a lot better than it is.

Why can't I just accept the staus quo? :blush:  :blush:  :blush:

:devil:
What facts is that mate. That Ottawa caters to Quebec? You wrote that 8 provinces recieve equalisation payments yet you did not mentioned that Ottawa catered to them now did you :o
By the way don't put words in my mouth mate. Like any Canadian I am all for improving our beloved country.

#50 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 11:23 AM

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 09:03 AM, said:

What facts is that mate. That Ottawa caters to Quebec? You wrote that 8 provinces recieve equalisation payments yet you did not mentioned that Ottawa catered to them now did you :o
By the way don't put words in my mouth mate. Like any Canadian I am all for improving our beloved country.
Am I allowed to say that I don't believe you?....(OR)....perhaps, I don't see how things would improve under your tenure as Prime Minister.

:hmmm:  :hesitant:  :eh:  :down:

ps(1) - the facts are right there in front of you....... :Oo:

ps(2) - If we surveyed all Canadians, which province do you think would be voted as the spoiled brat of Confederation?   :upside:

ps(3) - what about a province of Alberta's "magnitude"?  Should we be expected to pay out $9 billion a year?  Half of which gets transferred to Quebec?  :huh:   :crazy:
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#51 Guldorak

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:02 PM

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 23 2004, 04:21 PM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 09:03 AM, said:

What facts is that mate. That Ottawa caters to Quebec? You wrote that 8 provinces recieve equalisation payments yet you did not mentioned that Ottawa catered to them now did you :o
By the way don't put words in my mouth mate. Like any Canadian I am all for improving our beloved country.
Am I allowed to say that I don't believe you?....(OR)....perhaps, I don't see how things would improve under your tenure as Prime Minister.

:hmmm:  :hesitant:  :eh:  :down:

ps(1) - the facts are right there in front of you....... :Oo:

ps(2) - If we surveyed all Canadians, which province do you think would be voted as the spoiled brat of Confederation?   :upside:

ps(3) - what about a province of Alberta's "magnitude"?  Should we be expected to pay out $9 billion a year?  Half of which gets transferred to Quebec?  :huh:   :crazy:
  Yep free country and ditto on that one.

Don't recall trying to run for Prime Minster. Hmmm let me check my posts  :eek4:  Looky here nope did't say that. A bit of a confabulation.  :alien:


2) Your point being and relavance? Or do you just enjoy taking cheap shots at Quebec

3) The simple matter is I provisionally agree to with you that equalisation should be done away with.
One of the  point of contention with you was/is your belief that the country would/will fall apart with Alberta being a have not province.

You wrote earlier that

Quote

It's not too far-fetched to say that 'progressive' 'tolerant' Canada only functions because of Alberta money

Well my immediate reaction was I don't agree.

Part of what I wanted to look at  in response to your statement was a measure of the equalizations payments as related related to the GDP of the receiving province. I also wanted to look at Government budget trends both Federal, which I know and provicial which I have little  knowledge. I also wanted to look at other factors but you get the point.

Anyway then you took a gratitous shot at my home province

Quote

The point is rather obvious.

The feds cater to Quebec.

and it went down hill from there.


Since we are past rational and productive disscussion I'll leave it a that.

#52 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:27 PM

Nick, on Apr 22 2004, 12:23 PM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 22 2004, 08:32 AM, said:

Judging by you post your understanding of Canada and Canadian issues is quite slippery.

Guldorak said:

You simply don't grasp Canadian attitudes. You seem to think they are identical to American ones. Just mingle with a bunch of English Canadians and you'll see.

Guldorak said:

Frankly I highly doubt it. I'll have to look into when I do have some leisure time.

Please do so.  I'm unfamiliar with the current state of Canada and its future trends, but terse "You obviously don't know what you're talking about" responses won't further this discussion unless you can back up your claims with something.  I encourage you to contribute to the discussion, as this has become a very educational thread for me. (I had no idea Canada might be facing such serious hurdles).  But please do so only if you're going to contribute something a little more insightful than "You're wrong."

-Nick
Barely 24 hours, but the core message bears repeating.

I've made the effort.

:hugs:
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#53 Guldorak

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:40 PM

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 23 2004, 05:25 PM, said:

Nick, on Apr 22 2004, 12:23 PM, said:

Guldorak, on Apr 22 2004, 08:32 AM, said:

Judging by you post your understanding of Canada and Canadian issues is quite slippery.

Guldorak said:

You simply don't grasp Canadian attitudes. You seem to think they are identical to American ones. Just mingle with a bunch of English Canadians and you'll see.

Guldorak said:

Frankly I highly doubt it. I'll have to look into when I do have some leisure time.

Please do so.  I'm unfamiliar with the current state of Canada and its future trends, but terse "You obviously don't know what you're talking about" responses won't further this discussion unless you can back up your claims with something.  I encourage you to contribute to the discussion, as this has become a very educational thread for me. (I had no idea Canada might be facing such serious hurdles).  But please do so only if you're going to contribute something a little more insightful than "You're wrong."

-Nick
Barely 24 hours, but the core message bears repeating.

I've made the effort.

:hugs:
You mean the point where CJ Ageis in one of his first post in this thread made assertions with out any backing facts and that I disagreed with him . I found it interesting who got rapped on the knuckles for that. You on the other hand provided links to two opinion pieces  and stated some  uncredited.facts. Yet you manage to be smug about it.  :rolleyes:

Classic case of pot calling the  kettle black. Before you deal out advice be sure to follow it yourself mate.

:hugs:

Edited by Guldorak, 23 April 2004 - 01:44 PM.


#54 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:32 PM

Guldorak, on Apr 23 2004, 11:38 AM, said:

Classic case of pot calling the  kettle black. Before you deal out advice be sure to follow it yourself mate.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


:sleeping:  :sleeping:  :sleeping:  :sleeping:
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#55 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:37 PM

I would like to apologize to everyone for the tiff I've been pulled into.

:blush:  :blues:  :oops:
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#56 Jid

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:51 PM

Mr.Calgary, on Apr 23 2004, 09:41 AM, said:

As I thought,  $9 Billion a year is the current amount that Alberta is paying out.

One thing I had forgotten, of the 8 "have-not" provinces, Quebec gets half of all equalization payments.
Hate to interrupt this smiley festival. but I figured a few facts needed bearing, because I'm anal that way.

http://www.fin.gc.ca..._eq_calc_e.html

That explains how and why equalization payments are done.  

It also explains how the definitions of "have" and "have not" are made, and why Quebec recieves half of equalization payments.

(Shockingly enough, my guess wasn't off the mark: the equalization is calculated per capita, and Quebec has the enviable position of having a relatively small per-capita need coupled with *suprise* half of the countries "have not" population, that is, discounting Alberta and Ontario's populations.)

We now return you to your regularily scheduled conversation. :)
cervisiam tene rem specta

#57 prolog

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:00 PM

Jid, on Apr 23 2004, 07:49 PM, said:

We now return you to your regularily scheduled conversation. :)
I think you mean " :)  :lol:  :p  :D  :(  :unsure:  :wacko:  :D ", keeping in line with the way this thread's been going...

#58 the 'Hawk

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:13 PM

prolog, on Apr 23 2004, 03:58 PM, said:

I think you mean " :)  :lol:  :p  :D  :(  :unsure:  :wacko:  :D ", keeping in line with the way this thread's been going...
  :sarcasm:  :suspect:  :wacko:  :lol:  :love:  :pout:  :ninjadeath:  :eek:  :angry:  :look:  :dontgetit:  :wideeyed:  .

:eek4:  :Oo:  :hehe:  :crazy:  :suspect:  :unsure:  :blush:  :oh:  :inlove:  :eek2:   !  

:angel: And we have facts to back that up, too! :whistle:

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“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#59 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:49 PM

Posted Image
Favourite Coda thread quotes.....

(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#60 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 04:40 PM

Quote

Guldorack:  Or do you just enjoy taking cheap shots at Quebec.
I don’t see any cheap shots.  I see valid concerns.

Quote

Guldorack:You mean the point where CJ Ageis in one of his first post in this thread made assertions with out any backing facts and that I disagreed with him.

And yet I notice you still have no provided backing facts when I have. ;)

Quote

Guldorack: You on the other hand provided links to two opinion pieces and stated some uncredited.facts.

I’d say the opinions pieces are chock right full of facts.  Including the mount in payments that Quebec receive and the negative opinions of Albertans on the matter.  In the order of 7 out of 10 believing it is too much while Quebec screams more.  In addition it shows how the Canadian dollar has fallen apart since the equalization payments have increased over time.  The facts are there and for that matter the reality of how Albertans view the situation is in those articles.  The deeper other Canadians choose to stick their heads in the sand and the more they ignore the views of Alberta the more alienated they will be become.  Canada right now is playing the part of the ostrich with their heads stuck so far in the sand they can’t see what is happening.

You already have 16% of the population wanting to tell Canada bye.  As Ottawa takes out more and Alberta’s natural wealth is slowly depleted the population of Alberta will grow steadily less in favor of remaining the confederation.  

Quote

Kevin Street:
Imo, the current government is a bit like Velveeta.
It turns rotten when exposed to anything remotely like the conditions of the real world? :D    

Quote

Hawk: It'd mean a Canadian version of a civil war ---no money for troops, but plenty of hideous fighting with the chief victims being the economy, the international reputation of the country, and the people who I consider to be the majority of any given population---- those who don't give a damn about politics as long as it doesn't affect them.

The amusing thing is that all of these fallouts would mostly fall right on the head of Canada rather than the breakway province of Alberta.  Alberta would have the matter of renegotiating treaties and all the matters of a new sovereign country but it is a lot better alterative than getting dragged under with a sinking ship.  I think Albertans will come to see it as either Alberta can either stay with Canada and slowly be worn down into nothing or breakaway and make their own bid.  

You are leaving a second major matter out of it in the form of the United States.  Like you said Canadians love to stick up their middle finger at Washington.  What goes around comes around.  Just picture how the US government would react to having a new wealthy oil rich trading partner on our borders.  A single country that took the bulk of Canada’s surplus wealth with it.  I think Ottawa would be in for a rude awakening mighty fast once DC normalized relations with Edmonton quickly in order to get those oil markets and trade relations.  Not like Ottawa can do much besides hold their breath and stamp their feet ranting about the bad Yankees.  They already do that anyway. ;)
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