Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Disrespect the Profession but not the Person?

OT Disrespect Person v Profession

  • Please log in to reply
104 replies to this topic

Poll: Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it? (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it?

  1. Yes (11 votes [23.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.91%

  2. No (32 votes [69.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.57%

  3. Undecided (3 votes [6.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.52%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:59 PM

Ok. So in GMD, in the Malcolm Reynolds thread, the question of the ability to distinguish between the profession and the person comes up.

My position is that a person can respect another person without respecting their chosen profession.  Lil's argument is that a person's profession is a part of who they are.  

I have more to add, but I want to take a minute to construct my thoughts.  In the meantime - what are yours?

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#2 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:04 PM

Well qt knows my position on this.  ;)
Posted Image

#3 Uncle Sid

Uncle Sid

    Highly impressionable

  • Islander
  • 1,414 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:17 PM

Well, a person's conduct and reason for ending up in that job would be important here.  Also, it's necessary to have respect for everyone on a personal basis.  

Let's say that if there was say, a legalized prostitute out there, I wouldn't like her profession and probably wouldn't respect it, but at the same time, I would never act with personal disrespect towards that person.  Respect is earned, but a certain level has to exist in order to get along day-to-day.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#4 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:18 PM

The assertion to the contrary of my opinion is that the person's profession is a part of them, and therefore disrespecting their profession is disrespecting them.  I disagree.

As I said in the other thread - it is possible to respect a person, and think they made a poor choice, or an uninformed choice, or a selfish one, and STILL think the person is worthy of respect (overall).  While I agree that the profession is a part of that person - so are lots of things.  Our past mistakes are also a part of us, and we don't have to respect them to respect the experiences and the growth of those who made them.  Similarly, a person could be (for instance) a soldier, and another person could be a pacifist.  The pacifist could respect the person who chooses to be a soldier, while disagreeing essentially with the profession of soldiering, which they hold to be professional, state sponsored murdering.  But their reasons for being a pacifist, and a soldier could be one and the same - the betterment of humanity.  And they could both respect that in each other, while fundamentally disagreeing with the means they each chose to reach that path.

So I voted no.  The two are not the same, and one can disrespect the profession but respect the person.

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#5 Shalamar

Shalamar

    Last Star to the Left and Straight on till Morning

  • Forever Missed
  • 17,644 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:56 PM

Like you HM, I may not find some professions likeable, pleasing or what have you...but I certainly do respect the person doing them, if that person is worthy of respect.

Lil, this is not meant to pick on you but I am useing an example about your professions...NOT you

There are many lawyers I see as unscruplous, immoral, little better than criminals themselves, and useing the law to enable themselves, to advance themselves, and activities that harm the profession, and sometimes others as well...

I believe that one should take pride in their profession, do it to the best of their ability, uphold the honor and integrity of the profession.... and the lawyers I speak of above do not do this, they denigrate, marganialize, and dishonor the law and their profession.

Sadly, these bad apples taint others by their actions, and it is all to easy to tar all with the brush that should be held for a few.

The law is a sometimes mysteriou, mind boggling, complex thing for laymen and those that are supposed to be it's rather arcane masters, have been looked up, ( and or denigrated) since the profession began..and like police, educators, medical professionals and some other professions are often held to higher standards than others...this may not be 'right' but thats the ways it appears to me...
The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

Posted Image

#6 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,624 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 01:59 PM

I voted no, but I think that any blanket disrespect for an entire profession borders on prejudice.  There are certain aspects of my own profession that I'm pretty hard on, but I would ruffle if anyone said that they respected me even though I had chosen to be a professor.  Such arguments get pretty close to the kind of bigotry displayed toward people who choose to practice a certain religion or an alternative lifestyle, and the "I like you, I just think you chose a bad job" approach has the sound of "Hate the sin, love the sinner" or "Some of my best friends are  . . ."

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#7 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:02 PM

Cardie, on Apr 23 2004, 11:57 AM, said:

I voted no, but I think that any blanket disrespect for an entire profession borders on prejudice.  There are certain aspects of my own profession that I'm pretty hard on, but I would ruffle if anyone said that they respected me even though I had chosen to be a professor.  Such arguments get pretty close to the kind of bigotry displayed toward people who choose to practice a certain religion or an alternative lifestyle, and the "I like you, I just think you chose a bad job" approach has the sound of "Hate the sin, love the sinner" or "Some of my best friends are  . . ."

Cardie
Thank you.
Posted Image

#8 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:19 PM

Well, first of all, I don't think there's anything wrong with hate the sin love the sinner.  

That said, I think there is a big difference between what Shalamar spoke of and what I'm talking about.  Thinking that lawyers are dirty crooks who use the law, etc. (Not picking on you there Shal) is not disrespecting lawyering. It is inherently a respect for the profession, and a disrespect for lawyers.  It inherently involves the idea within it that there is a better way to be a lawyer than what the person expressing this opinion has seen.  I would agree that smearing all lawyers with that taint would be a form of prejudice.  

But having a moral objection to the practice of law - that's something different. I can't think offhand of a good reason to object to lawyering,  but if someone had one, they wouldn't be making a value judgment about the person - they'd be making it about the profession.

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#9 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:23 PM

Quote

I can't think offhand of a good reason to object to lawyering, but if someone had one, they wouldn't be making a value judgment about the person - they'd be making it about the profession.

Kaylee said it very well in Safe when she was berating Simon for complaining about life on the ship.  "And if that's what you think about this life, then you can't think much of them that choose it."  To me that's the bottom line.
Posted Image

#10 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:26 PM

My point is not that they CAN'T be the same, but that they aren't.  It is true that one person's disrespect of a particular profession will also mean they disrespect the person.  But it isn't necessarily so.

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#11 Shalamar

Shalamar

    Last Star to the Left and Straight on till Morning

  • Forever Missed
  • 17,644 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:29 PM

Lil it's not the profession but what one does with it. I deal with all things like this as Individuals.

There are bad individuals within all professions, just as there are exemplary with in all as well.
The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

Posted Image

#12 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:33 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 23 2004, 12:24 PM, said:

My point is not that they CAN'T be the same, but that they aren't.  It is true that one person's disrespect of a particular profession will also mean they disrespect the person.  But it isn't necessarily so.

HM07
I say it is so.  Always.  My opinion of course.
Posted Image

#13 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:57 PM

Hmm.  I wonder, if even Kaylee is right.  What about the life of an undercover cop?  How would we describe it? Dirty, gritty, seedy, etc?  And how would I describe someone who chooses it?  And why would anyone disrespect someone like that, no matter how dirty, gritty, seedy the work is?

Or, how about a garbageman who works in a dirty, smelly, foul dump?  Maybe the garbageman doesn't see it that way - maybe he doesn't even call himself a garbage man! :)  But, does the layperson's seeing the job as a dirty, smelly, foul job mean that they think the garbage man is a dirty, smelly, foul person?

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#14 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 04:41 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 23 2004, 01:55 PM, said:

how about a garbageman who works in a dirty, smelly, foul dump?  Maybe the garbageman doesn't see it that way - maybe he doesn't even call himself a garbage man! :)  But, does the layperson's seeing the job as a dirty, smelly, foul job mean that they think the garbage man is a dirty, smelly, foul person?
That's completely different. A bit above there, y'all were talking about moral objections to the work, not a preference not to be in the same conditions yourself, and you were talking about professions that someone can only get into by choosing it and working toward it, not jobs that people end up in because they didn't get a better one, and which practically nobody could enjoy doing.

I don't think I've ever heard of anybody presuming garbagemen to be dirty, stinky, and/or foul, but I'll bet a great many would be dismissive of them as "failures at life" for having ended up in such an unenjoyable job that nobody would have ever chosen to pursue it through work and sacrifice.

#15 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,214 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 05:48 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 23 2004, 01:57 PM, said:

My position is that a person can respect another person without respecting their chosen profession.  Lil's argument is that a person's profession is a part of who they are.  

HM07
Perhaps in a case were they've chosen their profession (and by that I mean more than just pick the best paying or easiest job or first job offer that came their way) but I'd be more concerned about the conduct in their job, and outside (sometimes people can be two very different people). I know people who I'd not want to work with or deal as a customer/clint/patient, but who are great outside of work, and vice versa. I think also, that to say all of these people are bad because of their choosen profession, which I consider bad, is another horrible sterotyping process in and of itself.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#16 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 05:58 PM

Major Winters: “Captain Sobel, you salute the rank, not the man.”

I think you can disconnect the profession and the person.  A respectable honest profession shouldn't be tainted because of a few bad apples.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#17 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 06:41 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Apr 23 2004, 06:56 PM, said:

Major Winters: “Captain Sobel, you salute the rank, not the man.”
One of my favourite lines from Band of Brothers right there. :cool:

To the matter of the thread--- it is entirely dependent upon the person. There are those people who define themselves by what they do. And you know, that's awesome. Especially if it's a profession. Teachers, doctors, lawyers, and so on-- these are people who have gone through a lot to earn the right to call themselves what they are. There are those who work, say, at Wal-Mart, who may define themselves as much by their job as any doctor--- but for the purposes of this discussion, we're talking *professions* here. Tradespeople, yes, professionals, yes, but employees who took a job to get by? I'm sure I'll offend a lot of waitresses and clerks and so on, but let's leave them out --for now.

We're talking about people who have worked damn hard to earn the degrees they have on the walls, and who may have foregone a lot of living in order to earn their MBAs or teaching certificates or doctorate degrees and so on.

In a sense, they're right to take offense on behalf of their profession. But it's also really hard to cleave what they do from who they are, when the pursuit of profession has shaped their character.

Although this will doubtless do little for the direction of the thread (since I am, in fact, stating both profession and personal experience as intertwined), I had to do a lot of hoop-jumping and changing of my life in order to become an accredited and certified teacher in this part of the country. That didn't come overnight. It took me five or six years. I went through school with people who went back to get second degrees and accreditation at thirty, forty, even fifty-seven because they wanted to be teachers. I know people who thought they wanted to be teachers but moved on because they couldn't handle the pervasiveness of their profession.

Look at how it even affects us here on the EI--- nobody would dare pass a lawyer joke without at least acknowledging Lil's profession. Lil is, of course, the most ubiquitous example, but how many soldiers or former servicepersons here take umbrage whenever a negative mention is posted about their duty served for their country? The sacrifices and the choices are made in equal measure, for personal reasons and for the rights and responsibilities that comes with the role.

There are plenty of soldiers who shouldn't be trusted with firearms. There are plenty of teachers who just want summers off. There are plenty of lawyers in the game for a buck, not to help people-- and the same holds true of doctors.

The essence of any profession is a choice of employment intended to serve others above and beyond simple retail or industrial days in, days out. Yes, any job done well has at its heart the concept of doing it well for the greater good, to drive the machinery of a corporation or whatever. However, professions have at their heart a focus on the well-being of others. Whether it's justice or medicine or education, professions seem to be founded on the concept of doing right for others.

And it's really hard to divide the profession from the person. After all, any good professional will remember one mistake more than a thousand successes. They take those failures personally. Why should they not also take the harsh words of those who disrespect and criticize the profession just as personally?

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#18 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 06:53 PM

I do not think they shouldn't take it personally,but they also need to respect that a person messed up by the errors and mistakes made by others of their profession is going to make people angry and maybe rightly so.


I had a doctor who sent my father home from the hospital after the car wreck that killed my mother and left him with head injures and a brusie running from the shoulders down his spine to just above his belly button.  Trust me with all the problems that came around becasue of this S.O.B.  I wish I had not listened to the lawyer and sued the guy for everything including money for any kids he would have college education. That is how bitter I am towards this man.



So if I go off about Dr.Dummy I have earned the right to but a doctor has the right to speak back. How else do we discover who has the better case? Say nothing to avoid offending or speak our minds?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#19 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 06:54 PM

Thank you 'Hawk.  Now, getting back to the issue that spawned this thread:  Inara.  We don't know that much about her past (damn you to hell Fox) but it seems clear to me that  she chose what she's doing and that she had to jump through lots of hoops to do it.  So, in the case of Malcolm Reynolds...seems to me that everytime he disrespects that choice he is disrespecting her.

So there!!!!!   :p~
Posted Image

#20 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 23 April 2004 - 07:01 PM

Now Lil that is a different perspective all toghere . Yes his comments about her choices are mean of him. As well as wrong. As you said we do not know what she had to do to get there what other life she could have had if did not become what she did.

She could have pulled herself out of a life of living on the streets?

She could have been raised by a group of companions as that was her mother's profession?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: OT, Disrespect, Person v Profession

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users