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Disrespect the Profession but not the Person?

OT Disrespect Person v Profession

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Poll: Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it? (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it?

  1. Yes (11 votes [23.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.91%

  2. No (32 votes [69.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.57%

  3. Undecided (3 votes [6.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.52%

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#41 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:29 AM

Quote

And, it may very well be a sign of respect that I persist in bugging you about it - not believing that a guy like YOU could possibly lend your talent and reputation to the corporate machine!

Please PLEASE tell me that you don't seriously think that this is what is behind Mal's continuous "whore" references when he's arguing with Inara.  Please.
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#42 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:34 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 01:27 AM, said:

Quote

And, it may very well be a sign of respect that I persist in bugging you about it - not believing that a guy like YOU could possibly lend your talent and reputation to the corporate machine!

Please PLEASE tell me that you don't seriously think that this is what is behind Mal's continuous "whore" references when he's arguing with Inara.  Please.
No - I think the issue there is quite a bit more complex! ;)  Course, we are talking in general here, and not about the show in particular! LOL!

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#43 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:43 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 01:16 AM, said:

Nope it doesn't work that way qt.  If it's wrong to cast aspersions on an entire profession then doing so is the same as casting aspersions on those who practice that profession.  Period.  :)
She didn't say it was wrong to cast aspersions on the profession.  She said it was wrong to cast aspersions on the professionals. :)

Sticking with the profession that spawned this discussion...

Inara is a glorified prostitute.  I have no respect whatsoever for the profession.  I'll admit that meeting a prostitute would not inspire me with respect.  But, knowing a person might make a difference.  In Inara's case, I think the case could be made that she is pioneering an effort to transform the profession away from the sordidness it is associated with, to a more humane outlook.  In the end, in my view, she is still selling sexual services for a price - albeit a high price and cleaner services.  Reminds me of the difference between bartending the local dive and the high classed hotel.  I don't respect bartending in any event, because I don't agree with the consumption of alcohol.  That said, in both cases, in the case of the high end bartender (or companion) or in the case of the low end bartender (or whore) knowing the person could lend to me having a respect for them that doesn't encompass the profession.  I will still look at both as inherently sinful occupations. But I'm intelligent enough to know that others don't share my morality, and that people may make the best of the choices available to them according to their understanding at the time.  I will respect more, their sense of direction, than their current circumstance - and that holds true for professions that I DO respect, just the same.  I don't think being a doctor means anything at all if you really don't care about patients, and did it as a means of making money only, and plan on living a crassly materialistic lifestyle while providing the minimum services to your patients, or bilking them (or the insurance company) for every available penny...I would not respect such a man or woman, and yet I have the highest respect for medical professionals of all sorts.

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#44 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:13 AM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 23 2004, 10:32 PM, said:

No - I think the issue there is quite a bit more complex! ;)  Course, we are talking in general here, and not about the show in particular! LOL!

HM07
I want to talk about the show in particular as that's what spawned this thread.  If that means you need to answer the question in the Mal thread then that's cool but I WOULD like an answer to the question.
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#45 sierraleone

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 09:31 AM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 24 2004, 01:14 AM, said:

sierraleone, on Apr 23 2004, 06:46 PM, said:

I think also, that to say all of these people are bad because of their choosen profession, which I consider bad, is another horrible sterotyping process in and of itself.
Hey Twin! :)  You are saying the same thing I am, only from the reverse perspective.  You are saying that disrespecting people blanketly because of their profession is a form of stereotyping (I agree), which would mean that there IS such a thing as NOT disrespecting people blanketly because of their profession.

HM07
I may have missed that or misunderstood.

How, Lil, is it much different from loving and agreeing with/respecting your friends in many fields, but them doing one thing you venemently disagree with? Whether its their profession, or some other sticking point between the two of you?

And also, say you meet someone that was a prositute at one point, and are now a doctor, or counsellor for prostitutes. I bet you'd have immense respect for them. Because of what they have done w/ their lives. But a couple years ago, you would have had none? Yet, even if its a past profession, its a part of who they are, especially if they decided to make a career out of counselling people that are in the situation she was in, and helping them out of it, like she wished someone would have done for her (assuming she did it on her own). All people have potential.

I have a friend, who is one of my best friend fromt the time I meet her at 10 years old until about the age of 16/17. To this day I don't know what happen to her, I tried to find out, but even her parents didn't fully know and didn't have a number to contact her with. She went to foster care for a while, as her parents had trouble handling her (to this day I don't know how this all came about). When I called her at the foster care she had some boyfriend/fiance, and I was shocked, she also had to go to the hospital for a reason the doctors couldnt' explain yet, I wanted to see her and hang out, and find out what was going on and talk face to face, but I never got the chance. From what I've been able to gather she ran away from childcare and went living w/ her boyfriend. When I learned this I tried to send an email, as I didn't know where she was living now. Her boyfriend had access to her email and said he didn't know if she responded to her email any longer, she had cheated on him w/ some other guy and he didn't know how to get in contact with her. I didn't know whether to believe this or not. I had the horrible idea that he might be a pimp, or all sorts of horrible things. I could have been wrong and was just trying to protect how I believe my friend to be, but certainly regardless I wasn't going to give this guy any personal info, or asked to meet him anywhere, as he was a complete stranger. Heck for all I know, he wasn't even the guy he was saying he was. Anyways, I called her parents once and a while and usually nothing to add. Apparently one Xmas she came back, and by the end they kicked her out again - shes a druggie apparently. I honestly don't know how to feel. Have I lost respect for her? I haven't even seen her to see if theres any resembalance to the person I knew. In fact, if anythings certain in my feelings about this case (my feelings regarding her are too confusing to sort out), it has lessen my respect for myself, as in, why didn't I keep in better and closer contact w/ her? Most best friends could call eachother once a year and its like they called eachother yesterday. But I missed something. This person was supposively someone I cared about and I wasn't there to even hear all the things going on in her life, to see the downward spiral and try to help. It may have not helped but I would have liked to make an attempt.
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#46 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:16 AM

Sierra you're actually PROVING my point.  In both scenarios you are basing the respect for THE PERSON on their profession.  Which is exactly my point.  Trying to say that you have no respect for "prostitutes" and then trying to say that you respect a certain person who is a prostitute is...well I think it's not intellectually honest to be quite candid.
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#47 sierraleone

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:11 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 12:14 PM, said:

Sierra you're actually PROVING my point.  In both scenarios you are basing the respect for THE PERSON on their profession.  Which is exactly my point.  Trying to say that you have no respect for "prostitutes" and then trying to say that you respect a certain person who is a prostitute is...well I think it's not intellectually honest to be quite candid.
Huh? And Actually I don't know why I added that story.  :(

But I think they're are always exceptions to the rule. I assume you mean their current profession when you said "In both scenarios you are basing the respect for THE PERSON on their profession." Inara is not a drug-addited prostitute. While I don't agree w/ prositution, I could respect what I saw of Inara (I haven't viewed every episoid so I couldn't say for certain) .... gotta go out, will finish later.
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#48 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:22 PM

Let me be clearer:

Quote

And also, say you meet someone that was a prositute at one point, and are now a doctor, or counsellor for prostitutes. I bet you'd have immense respect for them. Because of what they have done w/ their lives.

Respect based on what they have done.

Quote

But a couple years ago, you would have had none?

Again, respect based on what they are doing.  

My point (and I think both Delvo and 'Hawk did a good job of articulating the distinction) is that in cases where a person's profession is something they have chosen and worked for as opposed to something they've just fallen into or been forced into, the profession *is* part of who they are and if you express disrespect for that profession you are also disrespecting the person who chose it.
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#49 GiGi

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:51 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 23 2004, 04:52 PM, said:

Thank you 'Hawk.  Now, getting back to the issue that spawned this thread:  Inara.  We don't know that much about her past (damn you to hell Fox) but it seems clear to me that  she chose what she's doing and that she had to jump through lots of hoops to do it.  So, in the case of Malcolm Reynolds...seems to me that everytime he disrespects that choice he is disrespecting her.

So there!!!!!   :p~
Lil, Mal is in love with Inara, he says those things to keep he distant because he can't have her.  It is intentional disrespect because of his strong feelings.

This is LOVE 101.

Now as to the subject of this thread....Cardie summed up my thoughts perfectly, so what Cardie said.


(being a Bellydancer, I have had people look down on me because how other dancers choose to overplay the sexual aspects... and some unkind words as well)
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#50 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:58 PM

I KNOW he's in love with her.  I still think he's being disrespectful as hell (and yes I think he does it to keep her distant).  :p~

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#51 FlatlandDan

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:05 PM

If someone told me that photographers are lazy people who just happen to have gotten lucky and and taken a good picture, I'd take it personally.

But I'd also think that the person was incredably uninformed.  

To me it comes  down to how much I think a person knows about what they're talking about.  I can deal and forgive these people, because my response to them is to inform them of the information they are missing.  But it urks me when someone who really should know (another artist, a newspaper editor, etc...)spouts off about the lack of skills needed to take a picture.

I hope some of this made some sense.

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#52 GiGi

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:18 PM

^ We agree then.  He is disrespecting her on the outside, but I am sure he holds her in high regard in his inner most feelings.

As to Inara's profession.  She is no mere prostitute, she is more akin to a geisha, another respected profession (in the Japanese culture).  I want to post more about that, but in a different thread.

Sexual workers provide a very necessary outlet for men who don't have one.  I don't see anything wrong with it if all parties feel respected.

One of the women who came to me for bellydance lessons was a prostitute.  She was a high class one (I say was, since she died in a car accident).  Her intention was to bring back the spiritual connection into sexuality, very much like Inara.  Bellydance is a very spiritual dance at its root.  It connects the sacredness of sexual union, the sacredness of birth and sacredness of being a woman all togehter if it is done the correct way.

Anyway, my friend was much loved and respected in our community because she brought joy and excitement to everything she did.  She would light up a room with her presence.  Her loss was a great blow.  I never judged her because she got paid for her services.  I did also politely turn down her offer to bring me into her profession.  It was the right thing for her, and not for me at all.  But she was offering because she knew I was a struggling artist and needed money.

I don't know if there is any particular profession I have a judgement against (note this is "profession" as opposed to a dirty job, like say a hit man).  May personal encounters with lawyers have always been very possitive (and this was all before I met Lil).  Same with doctors.  But I think that is because I am very careful who I choose and where I live there are more people who are doctors or lawyers for the right reasons so good people can be found.
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#53 G1223

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:25 PM

Then we should not do the following

Say lawyers and scum even when some of them are.

Say that politicains are liars  even when we point or have pointed out the going back on what they have said.

Say doctors are heartless monsters more worried about money that waiting for test resualts. Even if we can show our person examples of it

Say the Policemen are thugs with badges even when we come across cases where that is the truth.

As Joe Friday (Jack Webb) said on Dragnet to a rookie cop about issues of the street" You will be looked upon as being on the take or a thug with a badge. Why? Becasue a person dressed exactly like you showed these traits to the people we protect and serve and that one bad cop can undo everything a thousand cops who are honest can do ."


Outside of the show. I disrepect a number of professions. I think actors vain and shallow till I meet them in person. Jason Carter is such a person but it does not keep me from thinking it when I run in to one who is extreamly shallow.


I have met Lil in real life and do not think of her as a ambuance chaser or a scumbag lawyer. I have also met a lawyer who messed up my mother's trust to the extent that it required hours of labor by three other lawyers to untangle the mess.  I do not think less of Lil but her profession is not something I am highly thinking of.
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#54 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:32 PM

G1223, on Apr 24 2004, 12:23 PM, said:

Then we should not do the following

*snip*
AGREED.  Hey I prefer to name names when I'm calling someone a liar or a scumbag...
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#55 FlatlandDan

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:39 PM

No, G, we shouldn't.  What you're talking about it branding a person before you meet them.  Every perfessionion has good people and bad people in it.  That's because they're individuals, not some clone of the same person.

Does Lil being a lawer change how you think about her?  Does me being a photographer?  If it does, then you really are only superficially getting to know people.  Are jobs are part of who we are.  Not all.
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#56 G1223

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:50 PM

Then we need to also prohibit discussion about those professions as they will lead to arguements  about their actions.  Basically we either allow the discourse of ideas rightly or wrongly concieved ideas,or we prohibit the dialog.  


This way we can cut out about  at least 60% OT . Someone better get a Mod to lock up  this and all the threads that have topics that offend. There goes talking about politicians and the dialog about their actions. So no more threads about Bush Kerry  clinton Thatcher Blair Chirac. and why we think their actions are wrong as we might offend someone.
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#57 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 03:18 PM

G1223, on Apr 24 2004, 12:48 PM, said:

Then we need to also prohibit discussion about those professions as they will lead to arguements  about their actions.  Basically we either allow the discourse of ideas rightly or wrongly concieved ideas,or we prohibit the dialog.
As QT said to me in the thread that spawned this one:  Baloney.  There is no rule that says a discussion of a given profession has to include willful generalizations.  Hell all you need to do to avoid it is, instead of saying, for example, "lawyers are ambulance chasers" is say "I know some lawyers who are ambulance chasers and I don't like it" or "I've read about some lawyers who are ambulance chasers".  I think it's rather appalling that the idea of free discourse is associated with rudeness.  One doesn't have to be rude or disrespectful in order to discuss something thoroughly and openly.  :cool:
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#58 the 'Hawk

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 03:47 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 24 2004, 01:23 AM, said:

You may take it personally that I think that the modern profession of teaching is more about churning out corporate cogs than it is about instructing children, but you don't get to say that I disrespect YOU on account of that opinion.
Perhaps not, but you'd better get a helmet on 'cause I'll be coming at your head for saying so anyway. It's a syllogism. You think teachers are workers in the factory of 'corporate cogs'. I am a teacher. QED, QT. ;)

Quote

#1 - you may NOT be one of the people who buys into the modern thinking.

Suppose for a moment I think turning out 'corporate cogs' is good and just and morally perfect and just what America needs (even if I am Canadian). What then?

Quote

#2 - you may DISAGREE that that is the case.

And I certainly do, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote

#3 - you may AGREE, and point out that education has always had the function of preparing people to live in the world they live in, and to function within society as one if its cogs.  And therefore you may feel that this is exactly what SHOULD be happening, and I'm off the wall for suggesting otherwise. 

But the crux of the problem remains that the discussion centres entirely around an unfair generalization on your part about the WHOLE education system. Everywhere. You don't point to, say, the Regents system in New York state, the California curriculum--- in short, you don't offer anything, not even an anecdote. Just a charge uphill, your flag to April's breeze unfurled.

And there's why I take offense. Because if you said "that's how it is in QT-country!" then I could write your comments off to a bad experience, possibly while raising Sunsport. Or, as another example, if you attributed it to your own opinions of how the education system failed *you*, I could counter with how it probably was the only thing that saved my life. And then we could have a poignant moment of mutual appreciation for each others' opinions, and be on our merry way.

In short, I could give you the benefit of the doubt if I could see the puppets of context and experience dallying. But with a single (and in the case of the "corporate cogs" comment, harsh) comment? There's a lot to be desired from which to draw a discussion. And I can't help it if I'm quick to offense. But I still try to give everyone reasonable grounds to not piss me off. ;)

Quote

In all of these scenarios, the issue at variance is not YOU, but what you do professionally.


And yet, my point is, no matter how hard you try to take me out of it, when all I bring to the discussion is the selfsame me that I am every day, I'm going to bring myself into it, and I'm going to bring the hammer down if I perceive an unfair remark.

I do this with any sense of injustice I encounter. People make remarks about the Catholic Church that are unfair? People make bad noises about Toronto Maple Leafs fans? People want to get uppity about those who enjoy classic rock? I am all those things, too--- I am not just some bird with an attitude and Coke in his tummy. And I only take offense where offense is due to carelessness or arrogance. I trust my instincts, and usually they're right.

Quote

And, it may very well be a sign of respect that I persist in bugging you about it - not believing that a guy like YOU could possibly lend your talent and reputation to the corporate machine!


To which my response would probably be something along the lines of "and just what is that supposed to mean?" I'd probably invoke the Borg and hive-minds and so on, and really get my feathers ruffled over it. I would not take it as a sign of respect, I can tell you that. I would take it as quite the opposite.

It's the same as if, using more prominent examples, I were to say that "I can't believe that Lil is a lawyer!" or "I can't believe Zack is a Democrat!" or "I can't believe that John Burke is a Catholic!" ----or worse, if someone were to say that "G is a typical Republican" or "Iolanthe is a typical grad student" or "Christopher is a typical author", or worst of all, "Cardie is so obviously a Jew" or "QT is such a typical black woman".

Those are all reactions based upon stereotypes. The kinds of stereotypes that really get under my skin. It doesn't matter to me if those stereotypes are based on colour or politics or occupation.... they're still going to be unfair.

Quote

You would certainly have the right to take it personally, because you are a human being, and as you stated, you've invested years of your life - made a commitment to this field.  But notwithstanding, that would still say nothing at all about my respect level for you.

I think I've explained pretty adequately that I would expect respect for me to be manifested in all forms, across the board. As long as there's generalizations being offered, they're being offered about everyone they affect. And, to me, the very nature of respect means NOT offering a generalization as fact. You never know what you're gonna get if you do that.

Note that all of the preceding was part of a long continuation of your hypothetical point, and I'm not offended at all, nor do I seek to offend anyone by continuing the point-- if I did, I apologize.
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#59 GiGi

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 03:48 PM

^Right on!  Thank you for saying that Lil!!!!
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#60 the 'Hawk

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 03:50 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 04:16 PM, said:

There is no rule that says a discussion of a given profession has to include willful generalizations.
Exactly. The moment it does, in fact, is often the moment it goes to hell.

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