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Disrespect the Profession but not the Person?

OT Disrespect Person v Profession

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Poll: Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it? (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it?

  1. Yes (11 votes [23.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.91%

  2. No (32 votes [69.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.57%

  3. Undecided (3 votes [6.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.52%

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#61 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 03:51 PM

apots GiGi.  Oh and 'Hawk:  'nother awesome post dude!!!   :love:
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#62 Delvo

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 04:27 PM

It looks like people are talking about a couple of different things. One is when somebody truly does have a problem with the career itself, and the other is when somebody just has a problem with the way some people do it. And examples of the latter are being used to make statements about the former, or at least which could be taken as being about the former.

The comments we're talking about, on subjects like the professions of education and law, fall into the latter category; they're reactions to the bad examples and don't necessarily deny the existence of the good examples. Even if the speaker who says it doesn't explicitly add a disclaimer out loud, (s)he knows the problem isn't universal and doesn't mean the comment that way.

But that's not the same issue as the former category, in which the job itself is the perceived problem, like with drug dealers, mafiosos, hitmen, and the people who torment a dictator's supposed enemies. If you really do have a problem with the inherent definition and nature of a profession, then you really can not ever respect a person who is occupied that way. Any time you can have such respect, it automaticly means that your problem isn't with the profession itself, but with the way some other individuals carry it out.

#63 the 'Hawk

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 04:36 PM

Delvo, on Apr 24 2004, 05:25 PM, said:

The comments we're talking about, on subjects like the professions of education and law, fall into the latter category; they're reactions to the bad examples and don't necessarily deny the existence of the good examples. Even if the speaker who says it doesn't explicitly add a disclaimer out loud, (s)he knows the problem isn't universal and doesn't mean the comment that way.
That's not how I operate, though.

Either the disclaimers are there, implicitly or overtly, or they're not.

And I don't really regard any of the morally squicky 'professions' you mentioned as being such, although I'm sure hitmen and mafiosos are trained over a series of years, and even drug dealers require some education. But the line is drawn at the rule of law between 'professional' and 'professional crime'....

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#64 Cardie

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 04:46 PM

Exactly, Delvo.  The dividing line for me, personally, is if the stated goal of the profession is to cause harm to people who don't desire or deserve the services of said practitioner.  Now, I can see a militant atheist deciding that he or she can't respect anyone who is a member of the clergy, so there can be less obvious professions that a given individual feels deserve blanket condemnation, but if you do that, then you're fooling yourself to say that you might still respect a person engaged in that profession.

Back to Mal and Inara: Mal thinks that he despises all whores, but he has managed to like and admire at least two of them, so I'd say his hatred of prostitution is more an ingrained response than a truly, deeply held conviction.

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#65 Delvo

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 04:54 PM

Cardie, on Apr 24 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

there can be less obvious professions that a given individual feels deserve blanket condemnation, but if you do that, then you're fooling yourself to say that you might still respect a person engaged in that profession.
Ya, I made a point of leaving out prostitution and religion from my examples because I know that different people will place them in one category or the other and didn't want that interfering with the definitions of the categories themselves.

#66 Delvo

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 04:55 PM

:upside:

Edited by Delvo, 24 April 2004 - 04:56 PM.


#67 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:03 PM

Delvo if I understand what you are saying....people who say that they are capable of respecting a person even if they claim not to respect their profession don't really object to profession per se but to the way some people practice it...
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#68 DWF

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:17 PM

G1223, on Apr 24 2004, 03:23 PM, said:

Outside of the show. I disrepect a number of professions. I think actors vain and shallow till I meet them in person. Jason Carter is such a person but it does not keep me from thinking it when I run in to one who is extreamly shallow.
You caught Jason Carter at a time, but there's a very good reason why, he won't be invited back to Marcon anytime soon. ;)
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#69 Uncle Sid

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:40 PM

Let me say this in terms of the Inara thing.  Inara is pretty, understanding and rather mature in many ways.  Inara is also a fictional character.  Now I'm not saying that someone like Inara is impossible, but writers have the power to write stories where square pegs do fit into round holes, or maybe more to the point, they write the way they see things.  

In terms of this discussion, Inara is the "hooker with a heart of gold", a tried and true derivation on the Western theme.  There are, no doubt, prostitutes who are kind people and generally well-meaning.  However, there is something about certain lines of work that does sort of wear away at you.  The sex trade, even as well regulated and high-class as the variation that the Alliance has, does open up a great deal of danger for it's practicioners, simply because it comes very close to the baser human drives.  That danger can be physical, or it can be loss of self-respect.  By no means does every practicioner have to experience any of these things, maybe, but it seems to me that when you talk about certain careers, you may view the person as what they might become, rather than what they are.  

It's like being a coal miner or a smoker.  You may not have the lung problems or whatever at the present, but usage does tend to lead that way.  While I believe that respect of some minimal level is owed to everyone, there are just some careers that I would doubt the person's wisdom in following.  To my mind, Inara would make a rather good therapist without having to bed people, so I don't think we'd have lost her best qualities if she wasn't a call girl.
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#70 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:45 PM

GiGi, on Apr 24 2004, 02:16 PM, said:

^ We agree then.  He is disrespecting her on the outside, but I am sure he holds her in high regard in his inner most feelings.

As to Inara's profession.  She is no mere prostitute, she is more akin to a geisha, another respected profession (in the Japanese culture).  I want to post more about that, but in a different thread.

Sexual workers provide a very necessary outlet for men who don't have one.  I don't see anything wrong with it if all parties feel respected.

One of the women who came to me for bellydance lessons was a prostitute.  She was a high class one (I say was, since she died in a car accident).  Her intention was to bring back the spiritual connection into sexuality, very much like Inara.  Bellydance is a very spiritual dance at its root.  It connects the sacredness of sexual union, the sacredness of birth and sacredness of being a woman all togehter if it is done the correct way.

Anyway, my friend was much loved and respected in our community because she brought joy and excitement to everything she did.  She would light up a room with her presence.  Her loss was a great blow.  I never judged her because she got paid for her services.  I did also politely turn down her offer to bring me into her profession.  It was the right thing for her, and not for me at all.  But she was offering because she knew I was a struggling artist and needed money.

I don't know if there is any particular profession I have a judgement against (note this is "profession" as opposed to a dirty job, like say a hit man).  May personal encounters with lawyers have always been very possitive (and this was all before I met Lil).  Same with doctors.  But I think that is because I am very careful who I choose and where I live there are more people who are doctors or lawyers for the right reasons so good people can be found.
GiGi - I'm quoting this entirely.

I would never respect the professionalizing of sex.  However, I believe very much that I would respect this person - both her sense of spirituality, her intellect, and her desire to treat sex as sacred.  I would still not respect her profession, and if given the opportunity to say "this is wrong" I would say "This is wrong.!"

That's the point I'm making.

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#71 Rhys

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:50 PM

DWF, on Apr 24 2004, 06:15 PM, said:

You caught Jason Carter at a time, but there's a very good reason why, he won't be invited back to Marcon anytime soon. ;)
That's unfortunate.  He was at Toronto Trek last year, and he was great.

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#72 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:59 PM

HM there is a huge difference between saying "this is wrong" and calling someone "whore" everytime you get tetchy.
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#73 DWF

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 06:03 PM

Rhys, on Apr 24 2004, 06:48 PM, said:

DWF, on Apr 24 2004, 06:15 PM, said:

You caught Jason Carter at a time, but there's a very good reason why, he won't be invited back to Marcon anytime soon. ;)
That's unfortunate.  He was at Toronto Trek last year, and he was great.

Rhys
I'm sure he was nice to the guests, I've seen him before and he seemed to be pretty nice, but I guess he wasn't too nice behind the scenes. :(
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#74 Harpie4

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 06:15 PM

Peridot, on Apr 24 2004, 04:34 PM, said:

A person's profession is part of their life, their time, their identity.  It's a part of who one is.

Peridot
I don't entirely agree with this statement. In fact, as a general rule, I would most strongly disagree...

Yes, of course there are professions out there that apply  - more vocations as I would term them, like doctors, nurses, veterinarians, teachers, writers, actors, but there are also a LOT of people out there who are doing the work they do not neccessarily because they WANT to but because they have commitments like mortgages, families to take care of, bills to pay etc. Do they want to be definied by what they do for a living? I doubt it!

Many are doing jobs as a stepping stone to work towards what they REALLY want but, the sad reality is, that, a very high percentage out there will always be doing jobs or work that they don't neccessarily want to do but because they have commitments.

It would be a great world if we could all be in the profession that we want but the reality is that there are are great proportion of us who won't make it due to all sorts of circumstances and not neccesarily a lack of drive or ambition.

So, would those people want to be defined by what they do? I doubt it very much. There are those who are in their ideal vocation, as noted above, that would be happy to be - granted. But I suspect that the great majority of people would much rather be defined for something other than what they do to support themselves and their families.    IE being a good Father, Mother, friend etc etc...

And, for the record, I may disprespect many professions but each individual is a case by case basis  - you never know WHY someone is in a certain profession/role ( as stated above). I respect people MORE who are in roles that they don't neccessarily want to be in but are doing so because they are fulfilling commitments because it shows that they are doing the RESPONSIBLE thing - thinking of others before themselves. Supporting themselves rather than relying on others to do so.

I also look at why people are in professions. IE  - With lawyers( who, yes, often have bad press)  - You might get someone who really wants to make a difference, who wants to have a good reputation and genuinely help people who have been the victims of injustices....So, yeah, case by case basis for me... Respect them until they give you a reason to disrespect them....

Edited to add some final "pearls of wisdom"  ;)

Edited by Harpie4, 24 April 2004 - 06:25 PM.

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#75 Peridot

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 10:51 PM

Harpie4, on Apr 24 2004, 11:13 PM, said:

Peridot, on Apr 24 2004, 04:34 PM, said:




A person's profession is part of their life, their time, their identity.  It's a part of who one is.

Peridot
I don't entirely agree with this statement. In fact, as a general rule, I would most strongly disagree...

I think your post makes a number of good points.  The only thing is....it doesn't really address what I was saying.

I did not say, nor would I say, that a person's profession is their entire identity.  Nor do I think that it should be; there may be cases where that is true, but they often are rather sad, involving some great loss in another area of life.    So when you say....

Quote

So, would those people want to be defined by what they do? I doubt it very much. There are those who are in their ideal vocation, as noted above, that would be happy to be - granted. But I suspect that the great majority of people would much rather be defined for something other than what they do to support themselves and their families.    IE being a good Father, Mother, friend etc etc...

....then I find it easy to say I agree.  Many may find themselves in jobs where they do not want that to be their primary identity---and even among those who have exactly the profession that they want, there are those who may still define themselves first and foremost by their religion, their relationships, or some other aspect of their life.

However, their job or profession is still a part of that identity; it's a part of how they would describe themselves to others.   It's a part of how others see them, as well.  This isn't just something that's my personal opinion; I think you would find this concept put forth in any course in the psychology of personality.

And for those who are stuck in careers they don't really care for, or just plain dead-end jobs---it seems to me that they also can be affected by someone showing disrespect for that profession, perhaps all the more so because they do not have at least the consolation of personal satisfaction with what they do.  And it is still a part of their life, every working day.

Peridot

#76 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 10:55 PM

In short, there is a VAST difference between being entirely defined by what you do and your profession being a PART of who you ARE.  

Lil
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#77 Peridot

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:05 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 24 2004, 04:32 AM, said:

Peridot, on Apr 24 2004, 12:06 AM, said:

Oh....and I have it on good authority that the only thing that Hawk drops while gliding overhead is Coke... :D  :angel:
Are you implying that I would drop Coke!?

NEVAH!

First the ridiculous allegations of my yellowness, and now THIS!? OUTRAGE! :p~

Errrr.....how about as in dropping a Coke off for a friend?  You did promise to do that one time last fall, after I started school..... ;)

I probably should have said you drop "Cokes" instead of "Coke".... :D  :blush:

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#78 G1223

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:08 PM

DWF, on Apr 24 2004, 11:01 PM, said:

Rhys, on Apr 24 2004, 06:48 PM, said:

DWF, on Apr 24 2004, 06:15 PM, said:

You caught Jason Carter at a time, but there's a very good reason why, he won't be invited back to Marcon anytime soon. ;)
That's unfortunate.  He was at Toronto Trek last year, and he was great.

Rhys
I'm sure he was nice to the guests, I've seen him before and he seemed to be pretty nice, but I guess he wasn't too nice behind the scenes. :(
Sad to hear  but everybody has off days and off weeks even. I saw him at Gen con with Richarad and at 2Be Continued and they were greeat from both ends.
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#79 Peridot

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:19 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 25 2004, 03:53 AM, said:

In short, there is a VAST difference between being entirely defined by what you do and your profession being a PART of who you ARE. 

Lil
Yes, I think that's probably a clearer way of putting it. Thanks, Lil....I just don't often manage to put things in a short form. :blush:

And I know that even when I was working my way through college by cleaning other people's houses, I would not have appreciated someone showing disrespect for that line of work, though it was not what I was choosing as a career.

Peridot

#80 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:23 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 06:57 PM, said:

HM there is a huge difference between saying "this is wrong" and calling someone "whore" everytime you get tetchy.
I agree. :)

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