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Disrespect the Profession but not the Person?

OT Disrespect Person v Profession

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Poll: Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it? (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Does Disrespect of the Profession = Disrespect of the person practicing it?

  1. Yes (11 votes [23.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.91%

  2. No (32 votes [69.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.57%

  3. Undecided (3 votes [6.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.52%

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#81 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:34 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 24 2004, 04:45 PM, said:

I think I've explained pretty adequately that I would expect respect for me to be manifested in all forms, across the board. As long as there's generalizations being offered, they're being offered about everyone they affect. And, to me, the very nature of respect means NOT offering a generalization as fact. You never know what you're gonna get if you do that.

Note that all of the preceding was part of a long continuation of your hypothetical point, and I'm not offended at all, nor do I seek to offend anyone by continuing the point-- if I did, I apologize.
Sorry for picking and choosing my replies here, but I'm borrowing a connection right now! :)

Going back to my hypothetical - what generalization did I offer?  If I believe that the educational system is training our children to be corporate cogs, that's my opinion.  That says something about my opinion of what education should and should not be about.  And if you are a part of that selfsame educational system, obviously I'm stating that you are a part of a system that ought not to be in existence.  That STILL doesn't say anything at all about my feelings for you individually.  

Let's look at another aspect of things.  There are lots of people on this board who are religious, and lots of people who are not.  There are people who fundamentally do not respect organized religions, or more specifically certain ones.  Let's take, for instance, Baha'i Faith, since that's my faith.  There are Christians who feel, fundamentally, that my faith is wrong.  Being Christian (to many) means inherently, that you believe that everything that is NOT Christian is false.  Do you mean to say that because Baha'i Faith is a part of who I am, and what I've embraced for my life, etc., etc., etc., that I must now believe that every Christian that has such a doctrine does not respect me?  No.  There may be some who don't.  But there are some others who recognize very clearly, the distinction between me, and my faith.  Notwithstanding, I would be very happy to tell them that at least some of who they see me as is because of my faith.  And that if they are respecting me, they ought to respect what helps me BE me.  Their failure, however, to make that connection does not lessen their respect for me.  It just means that they can't see it that way, because of their own beliefs.

Likewise, having a disrespect for a profession does not necessarily equate to a disrespect for a person practicing that profession, nor does making negative statements about the profession equate to a generalization about the people practicing it.  

And no - you've caused me no offense! :)

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#82 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:42 PM

Delvo, on Apr 24 2004, 05:25 PM, said:

But that's not the same issue as the former category, in which the job itself is the perceived problem, like with drug dealers, mafiosos, hitmen, and the people who torment a dictator's supposed enemies. If you really do have a problem with the inherent definition and nature of a profession, then you really can not ever respect a person who is occupied that way. Any time you can have such respect, it automaticly means that your problem isn't with the profession itself, but with the way some other individuals carry it out.
You've made an excellent distinction, and one I want to support.  Only, I still can't blanketly state that I agree with this.  I can think of no circumstance in which I would respect a drug dealer, mafioso or hitman, but then, I put prostitution in the same category, and Gigi offered a situation in which I could respect the prostitute, without respecting prostitution.

I'll pause here, because I think that offering dealing and mafia activity as "professions" highlights your point very well - that what I'm saying essentially is that the profession itself (in the case I'm going over with 'Hawk is not the problem - but the issue ALSO isn't the way some people practice it.  I don't know what the right distinction is, and I'm willing to be persuaded if someone can make the connection between Delvo's point and my own...

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#83 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:58 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 24 2004, 09:21 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 06:57 PM, said:

HM there is a huge difference between saying "this is wrong" and calling someone "whore" everytime you get tetchy.
I agree. :)
Which is why I don't buy the argument that Mal is somehow really *not* disrespecting Inara every time he calls her "whore".  His insults are some kind of tesosterone driven reflex as opposed to some legitimate moral observation.  That's precisely what makes them (and him) so disrespectful.

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#84 GiGi

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:27 AM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 24 2004, 03:43 PM, said:

I would never respect the professionalizing of sex.  However, I believe very much that I would respect this person - both her sense of spirituality, her intellect, and her desire to treat sex as sacred.  I would still not respect her profession, and if given the opportunity to say "this is wrong" I would say "This is wrong.!"

That's the point I'm making.

HM07
I personally have no reason to make a judgement like that so I don't.  If there is mutual respect and agreement there is no reason for sex not to be sold.  It is sold in so many other ways only because money isn't directly exchanged it isn't seen in that light.  How many women will marry men for there money.  There is no difference in my mind, only the one who marries has a single client as opposed to many.

Edited by GiGi, 25 April 2004 - 12:28 AM.

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#85 GiGi

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:30 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 09:56 PM, said:

Which is why I don't buy the argument that Mal is somehow really *not* disrespecting Inara every time he calls her "whore".  His insults are some kind of tesosterone driven reflex as opposed to some legitimate moral observation.  That's precisely what makes them (and him) so disrespectful.

Lil
I agree that he is disrespecting her, only it isn't your garden variety man disrespecting a woman because he is a jerk.

There is a story behind it all, a sad story at that.

And that is why it is interesting.
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#86 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:33 AM

GiGi, on Apr 24 2004, 10:28 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 24 2004, 09:56 PM, said:

Which is why I don't buy the argument that Mal is somehow really *not* disrespecting Inara every time he calls her "whore".  His insults are some kind of tesosterone driven reflex as opposed to some legitimate moral observation.  That's precisely what makes them (and him) so disrespectful.

Lil
I agree that he is disrespecting her, only it isn't your garden variety man disrespecting a woman because he is a jerk.

There is a story behind it all, a sad story at that.

And that is why it is interesting.
Well I do think it's because he's being a jerk.  But it's a jerk with enough more to him than jerkiness and with enough story behind the jerkiness to not let the jerkiness outweigh his good qualities.... :cool:
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#87 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:45 AM

GiGi, on Apr 25 2004, 01:25 AM, said:

Handmaiden07, on Apr 24 2004, 03:43 PM, said:

I would never respect the professionalizing of sex.  However, I believe very much that I would respect this person - both her sense of spirituality, her intellect, and her desire to treat sex as sacred.  I would still not respect her profession, and if given the opportunity to say "this is wrong" I would say "This is wrong.!"

That's the point I'm making.

HM07
I personally have no reason to make a judgement like that so I don't.  If there is mutual respect and agreement there is no reason for sex not to be sold.  It is sold in so many other ways only because money isn't directly exchanged it isn't seen in that light.  How many women will marry men for there money.  There is no difference in my mind, only the one who marries has a single client as opposed to many.
I would not respect a woman who married for money any more than I would respect a woman who prostitutes herself.  That example is fundamentally invalid, because most women DON'T do that in societies where women have freedom of choice.  

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#88 GiGi

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 02:19 AM

Yes, most women may not choose that.  And in most cases it is not a good thing for the woman.  But in some cases it does work.  And cultures vary.  

I at first judged my friend when she told me about her choice to go into the world's "oldest profession" (I really dislike the terms prostitute or whore to describe what she actually did), because I too don't think highly of everyone that does go into that profession as they do sell themselves out in the worst way.  But when I understood what she was doing, to educate men to the sacredness of sex as her main goal, to listen to them talk or be ther when they needed someone there for them.  Much like Inara, much like courtesans of any culture.  I then stopped judging her, because that judgement colored my friendship for her and got in the way.  I loved her dearly and I miss her very much.
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#89 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 09:10 AM

Cardie, on Apr 24 2004, 05:44 PM, said:

Exactly, Delvo.  The dividing line for me, personally, is if the stated goal of the profession is to cause harm to people who don't desire or deserve the services of said practitioner.  Now, I can see a militant atheist deciding that he or she can't respect anyone who is a member of the clergy, so there can be less obvious professions that a given individual feels deserve blanket condemnation, but if you do that, then you're fooling yourself to say that you might still respect a person engaged in that profession.
Where do you put soldiers, in this dichotomy?

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#90 Cardie

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 11:04 AM

^^Given past history on that issue in this forum, I'd rather we didn't bring that point up for discussion.

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#91 Delvo

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 11:54 AM

But that history itself answers the question. Almost everyone here puts the military profession in the "can respect them or not, individually" category, while the thread you're talking about was started by one person who puts it in the "the profession itself is bad so no good people can be in it" category. The only thing left unanswered then is why the question was asked, since that was already evident; it seems to treat the issue of which professions go into which category as if it were supposed to be a matter of fact built in to the dichotomy, when in fact the dichotomy is a matter of how the categorizer sees them.

Edited by Delvo, 25 April 2004 - 12:10 PM.


#92 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 11:57 AM

The question was no doubt asked because it's a good question. And maybe hm wasn't around for the previous controversy.
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#93 the 'Hawk

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:27 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 25 2004, 12:32 AM, said:

Going back to my hypothetical - what generalization did I offer?  If I believe that the educational system is training our children to be corporate cogs, that's my opinion.  That says something about my opinion of what education should and should not be about.  And if you are a part of that selfsame educational system, obviously I'm stating that you are a part of a system that ought not to be in existence.  That STILL doesn't say anything at all about my feelings for you individually.
Perhaps not, but suppose for a moment that I'm bringing to the table my beliefs in the education system as a powerful means of self-development. The first thing I'm going to ask you is, "why are you being so deliberately obtuse? The education system is worth more than your opinion of it seems to suggest." Thus indicating that not only do I not agree with your opinion due to my own, but that I'm getting my back up.

The reason for it is that "that's my opinion" is as clear a sign that you're not necessarily looking for a discussion --just a place for the assertion of your opinion-- as is possible in this medium. Either I challenge you to bring something other than your opinion to the table, or I move on and shrug it off. Which, to be honest, I'd be more likely to do. Since getting into discussions about THE education system on the Internet is usually a cat-herding expedition.... there's too many education systems at work to discuss the merits of them generally. It's not the US fedgov where you can point and say 'The President is this and that', because there's only one president. Every district, board, school, classroom is different.

Quote

There are Christians who feel, fundamentally, that my faith is wrong. 

There are members of every religion who feel that way-- there's always going to be people who only see one right way to do things, whether it's spiritual or whatever. Doesn't make them right or wrong.

Quote

Likewise, having a disrespect for a profession does not necessarily equate to a disrespect for a person practicing that profession, nor does making negative statements about the profession equate to a generalization about the people practicing it. 

I would argue that it does, unless you reinforce the equation with proof to the contrary--- anecdotal, factual or otherwise. There has to be a reason you're saying that, and unless you make it clear, offense can be interpreted from your remarks. And thus you disrespect the person by not making it clear that you, the one making the remarks, are making that dichotomy clear. It is incumbent on the one firing the opening shot to declare where, why, and how they are aiming their shell. Otherwise they could spark a war over it.

And, once more, not offended in the slightest-- all for theory! And theory for all!

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#94 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:34 PM

The Catholic Church is an organized institution.  It has a "platform".  It's like a political party.  Medicine, education, law, are not the same things at all.  It's not a valid analogy imo.
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#95 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:05 PM

Delvo, on Apr 25 2004, 12:52 PM, said:

But that history itself answers the question. Almost everyone here puts the military profession in the "can respect them or not, individually" category, while the thread you're talking about was started by one person who puts it in the "the profession itself is bad so no good people can be in it" category. The only thing left unanswered then is why the question was asked, since that was already evident; it seems to treat the issue of which professions go into which category as if it were supposed to be a matter of fact built in to the dichotomy, when in fact the dichotomy is a matter of how the categorizer sees them.
I asked because of the distinction Cardie made... but respecting her wishes not to review this again, I'll let it alone.

The real issue I'm trying to drill down to is what is the difference between say a soldier and a prostitute, versus a drug dealer.  As I said, I don't agree at all with prostitution, but Gigi has given me a concrete example of a woman I could have respected who was one.  Inara is fictitiously another.  There are some who absolutely disagree with the military, and do not agree that being a soldier is a worthwhile profession (the controversial thread in question case in point).  Notwithstanding - I don't know if those same people would inherently disrespect someone who is.

How about Quakers?  Quakers are absolute pacifists.  I don't believe they disrespect everyone they meet who isn't...

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#96 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:10 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 25 2004, 01:25 PM, said:

Quote

Likewise, having a disrespect for a profession does not necessarily equate to a disrespect for a person practicing that profession, nor does making negative statements about the profession equate to a generalization about the people practicing it. 

I would argue that it does, unless you reinforce the equation with proof to the contrary--- anecdotal, factual or otherwise. There has to be a reason you're saying that, and unless you make it clear, offense can be interpreted from your remarks. And thus you disrespect the person by not making it clear that you, the one making the remarks, are making that dichotomy clear. It is incumbent on the one firing the opening shot to declare where, why, and how they are aiming their shell. Otherwise they could spark a war over it.
I already did offer an anecdotal proof to the contrary - in this very thread.  Gigi introduced to us a friend of hers (now passed on) who worked in a profession I do not respect.  To the extent that her job involved having sex with men for money - I don't respect that.  And yet, she as a person, is someone I respect (given the introduction that I was given.)  

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#97 the 'Hawk

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:33 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 25 2004, 06:08 PM, said:

I already did offer an anecdotal proof to the contrary
About education? No.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your opinion about the education system with something evidentiary in nature. Otherwise, it's an unproven assertion and a generalization without any grounding. And thus it's offensive. That's my definition anyway.

Not that I'm offended.

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#98 Josh

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:40 PM

No, I don't think it's anyone's right to judge people based on what they do. It's far too convenient to say that you respect someone yet you don't respect what they do because often the two are very connected.
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#99 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:48 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 25 2004, 06:31 PM, said:

Handmaiden07, on Apr 25 2004, 06:08 PM, said:

I already did offer an anecdotal proof to the contrary
About education? No.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your opinion about the education system with something evidentiary in nature. Otherwise, it's an unproven assertion and a generalization without any grounding. And thus it's offensive. That's my definition anyway.

Not that I'm offended.

:cool:
:huh:  

Um... I have no such opinion about the educational system.... I was speaking hypothetically about a subject I thought you could relate to... with an opinion that I could argue both sides of the coin on!

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#100 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:50 PM

Josh, on Apr 25 2004, 06:38 PM, said:

No, I don't think it's anyone's right to judge people based on what they do. It's far too convenient to say that you respect someone yet you don't respect what they do because often the two are very connected.
Hey Josh!  Part a of your statement, in my opinion, has nothing to do with part b of your statement.  I agree that judging a person based on what they do can be prejudicial.  I'm arguing that every instance in which we judge what a person does, we are not judging the person.
And I'm arguing it without recourse to absolutes, because I agree that sometimes we DO judge people that way, right or wrong.  

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