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Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

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Smokers beware:

Smoking Health Restrictions

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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 09:55 AM

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4851908/

Yep, so much for outside being the designated somking section...That doesn't seem to be the case any longer.

All I can say is thank god I don't live in LA...otherwise I'd have no choice but to file a lawsuit of discrimination against the city.

Apparently the city doesn't mind taking tax money from smokers...but god forbid they want to go to the beach and enjoy a smoke.

OTOH the mayor did have this to say:

Quote

People will be able to smoke in designated areas on the city pier.

Translation: Go to the back of the bus, Rosa.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#2 Rhys

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:16 AM

"Smoker" is now a race?

Rhys
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#3 prolog

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:20 AM

I was going to write something about how equating the struggle for civil rights of blacks in America to the inconveniences smokers now face is horrible and offensive, but then I looked at who wrote it, and I think my efforts would be wasted.

#4 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:22 AM

Rhys, on Apr 28 2004, 11:14 AM, said:

"Smoker" is now a race?

Rhys
No ...smoker is an US citizen involved in a completely legal activity...that activity may be unliked byu many...but its still legal...I guess theultimate question is how far we're willing to let gov't go to protect us from ourselves...i'm sure on that same beach drinking is probably allowed if the container is covered or hidden ..yet swimming drunk isn't a more immediate danger that luncg difficutlites from 2nd hand smoke



gc   :devil:

Edited by gaius claudius, 28 April 2004 - 10:24 AM.

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#5 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:23 AM

Rhys, on Apr 28 2004, 10:14 AM, said:

"Smoker" is now a race?

Rhys
No, of course not. But discrimination is discrimination. Period. The city has no problem taxing smokers to help pay for the beach...the very same beach where smokers are now being discriminated against.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#6 prolog

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:45 AM

"Discrimination is discrimination" is false.  There is a world of difference between discriminating based on genetic characteristics which one cannot help, and discriminating based on a habit which is known to cause diseases to both the practictioner and those around him or her (cancer from second-hand smoke).

#7 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:47 AM

prolog, on Apr 28 2004, 08:43 AM, said:

Discriminating based on a habit which is known to cause diseases to both the practictioner and those around him or her (cancer from second-hand smoke).
Here's the EPA's page on second hand smoke:

http://www.epa.gov/i...ubs/etsbro.html

This pretty much has 'compelling state interest' written all over it...

EDIT: OTOH, just causing diseases in the practictioner isn't really a problem. Here in America, you cankill yourself just about any way you please... ;)

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 28 April 2004 - 10:48 AM.

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Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#8 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:47 AM

prolog, on Apr 28 2004, 11:43 AM, said:

"Discrimination is discrimination" is false.  There is a world of difference between discriminating based on genetic characteristics which one cannot help, and discriminating based on a habit which is known to cause diseases to both the practictioner and those around him or her (cancer from second-hand smoke).
That it causes harm to the practioner is a matter of free will...that it causes harm to others through 2nd hand smoke is a matter for scientific debate..


gc   :devil:
I seek the truth...it is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance that does harm.
- Marcus Aurelius

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#9 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:51 AM

gaius claudius, on Apr 28 2004, 08:45 AM, said:

prolog, on Apr 28 2004, 11:43 AM, said:

"Discrimination is discrimination" is false.  There is a world of difference between discriminating based on genetic characteristics which one cannot help, and discriminating based on a habit which is known to cause diseases to both the practictioner and those around him or her (cancer from second-hand smoke).
That it causes harm to the practioner is a matter of free will...that it causes harm to others through 2nd hand smoke is a matter for scientific debate..


gc   :devil:
Taking it to EtU ;):

http://www.exisle.ne...ST&f=11&t=15513
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#10 QueenTiye

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:57 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 28 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

Here's the EPA's page on second hand smoke:

http://www.epa.gov/i...ubs/etsbro.html

This pretty much has 'compelling state interest' written all over it...
the link you provide has to do with indoor smoke.  I don't comprehend at all the ban on outdoor smoking - except in the context of littering - and yes, smokers litter beaches disgustingly. As do lots of other people, but I personally feel comfortable picking up, or stepping around a soda can, while I feel slightly nauseous at the idea of cleaning up or stepping on a discarded cigarette butt.  

Still - I wonder if there are other ways to end that scourge, short of banning smoking?

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#11 G1223

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 10:59 AM

So after the smoke nazi's get done what are they going to blame next car exhaust?  I get to where I look at the Nazi's and think maybe a V8 with no cadalic converter and a muffer desigened to only lower the noise but leave a black as night cloud of smoke behind me would be a decent object lesson.  Then I realize that there are others who are not connected to the Nazi's and go back to thinking about running the Nazi's over.

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#12 Uncle Sid

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:10 AM

Sorry, but I don't see how this is a problem as long as people aren't pursued on to their own property.  Again, it'd be one thing if the stuff only killed the user of it, but I see no point in choking on someone else's smoke in public, where I don't have choice in the matter.

Further, I'm not a huge beachgoer, but my memories of the beach are filled with butts littered just about everywhere on the ground.  They'd be nice to get rid of as well, since they are an almost ubiquitious source of junk in public places.

And as far as the cars go, there are already emissions inspections for cars, so I don't see how anyone is getting off with cars any more than people who smoke.  Laws exist against both forms of noxious emission.  Further, the major difference between smoking and cars is that you actually need automobiles to get to work and transport goods, so they're a necessary evil.  Smoking isn't.  There's not the same cost-benefit ratio involved.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 28 April 2004 - 11:12 AM.

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#13 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:10 AM

When they do something about the massive amounts of crap that's pumped into the air by big industry, then I'll consider quitting smoking.
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#14 G1223

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:17 AM

But Sid the car will continue to push out carbon monoxide in doses higher than Bob the smoker will on the same street corner. IC engine will alwys be that way yet these "A  person  has smoked in this room in the last 5 years. I demand a smoke free enviroment" never seem to be screaming about bus that goes by pitching out it's cloud of smoke.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#15 QueenTiye

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:22 AM

G1223, on Apr 28 2004, 12:15 PM, said:

But Sid the car will continue to push out carbon monoxide in doses higher than Bob the smoker will on the same street corner. IC engine will alwys be that way yet these "A  person  has smoked in this room in the last 5 years. I demand a smoke free enviroment" never seem to be screaming about bus that goes by pitching out it's cloud of smoke.
1. Its two different kinds of smoke.  Their effects, short-term/long-term may be different.
2. They are outdoors.  Air disperses the smoke (which is why I don't get the secondhand-smoke argument being made by this ban).
3. As is already stated, people concerned about this already fuss about it, lobby congress, etc., to the extent that laws are on the books forcing change.
4. What laws (other than banning) would you put in place to protect others from second hand smoke?  Would a smoker put a clean air filter ontheir cigarette?

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#16 Rhys

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:25 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Apr 28 2004, 11:21 AM, said:

No, of course not. But discrimination is discrimination. Period. The city has no problem taxing smokers to help pay for the beach...the very same beach where smokers are now being discriminated against.
The city also taxes people who drive, urinate, and have sex to help pay for the beach, yet none of those activities are allowed on the beach either.

There's nothing that says that smokers are not allowed on the beach, only that they're not allowed to smoke while they are there.  There's no discrimination.

How about non-smokers' rights?  If someone has smoked a cigarette in the last half-hour or so, I can tell within a minute of being in the same room with them - the smell is enough to make me uncomfortable.  Then there are those with asthma or other allergies.  Those aren't even a choice?  How about their rights?

Rhys
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#17 Uncle Sid

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:33 AM

G1223, on Apr 28 2004, 12:15 PM, said:

But Sid the car will continue to push out carbon monoxide in doses higher than Bob the smoker will on the same street corner. IC engine will alwys be that way yet these "A  person  has smoked in this room in the last 5 years. I demand a smoke free enviroment" never seem to be screaming about bus that goes by pitching out it's cloud of smoke.
Oh, I complain about car smoke all the time.  No one is saying that it's not a problem.  The difference is that no one is going anywhere without the smoke coming out of the tailpipe.  I don't need to suck in cigarette smoke to do anything at all, except perhaps to help shorten my lifespan or activate an asthma attack.

Further, cigarette smoke tends to localize near people and in areas crowded with people.  Unless you're in a traffic jam, auto pollution is dispersed.  People, however, frequently smoke in closed areas and in groups.  I'll get more smoke in my lungs from someone sitting near me on the beach than I would from driving on the highway in my nice closed air-conditioned car with the person in front of me a comfortable few car lengths away from me.

The point you are missing is that people would demand a completely smoke free environment if they could get away with it.  I certainly would.  However, that's not possible when it comes to cars and factories, not yet anyway.  And there *are* regulations even for that stuff.  Either way, that's still not a reason to allow myself to be poisoned by someone who wants to pollute the air in my general area for their own mere recreation.  Just because we can't avoid one particular evil doesn't mean that we should be forced to allow all the rest of them.
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#18 G1223

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:38 AM

Uncle Sid, on Apr 28 2004, 04:31 PM, said:

Further, cigarette smoke tends to localize near people and in areas crowded with people.  Unless you're in a traffic jam, auto pollution is dispersed.  People, however, frequently smoke in closed areas and in groups.  I'll get more smoke in my lungs from someone sitting near me on the beach than I would from driving on the highway in my nice closed air-conditioned car with the person in front of me a comfortable few car lengths away from me.
So the black plume  of smoke from the city bus that gets in people's faces as they wait for their particular  smoke belching bus is not going to casue them any health related problems but raoul the smoker who smoked outside on the sidewalk right by the busstand is going to cause the ashma attack from hell?


Becareful of the guy cooking out with carcoal and that bonfire that is so famous in beach movies.  They have the same problem.

Edited by G1223, 28 April 2004 - 11:44 AM.

If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#19 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:44 AM

I'm more concerned where regulators take away my right of choice in a free marketplace...i.e...if there's a restuarant or bar that allows smoking..then you don't have to patronize it (or work there)...let market forces decide.  If the owner of said establishment feels he is losing business becuase of having smokers he can ban them..his choice...and I can chose whether or not I want to go there...without any help from big brother.

I live in the state of Maine (2nd highest rate of smoking in the US ..thank you very much :devil: )..and our Govenor decided...withouth the legislative input to ban smoking from all bars and restaurants...in my hometown of Portland( Maine's biggest city) most of the city bars and taverns are located in  The Old Port District...since the ban 2 things have happened...business has dropped off from the bars appreciably and incidents of public rowdiness in the old port have gone up...since everybody's  going outside to smoke  :devil:


gc  :devil:
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#20 QueenTiye

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:51 AM

G1223, on Apr 28 2004, 12:36 PM, said:

Uncle Sid, on Apr 28 2004, 04:31 PM, said:


Further, cigarette smoke tends to localize near people and in areas crowded with people. Unless you're in a traffic jam, auto pollution is dispersed. People, however, frequently smoke in closed areas and in groups. I'll get more smoke in my lungs from someone sitting near me on the beach than I would from driving on the highway in my nice closed air-conditioned car with the person in front of me a comfortable few car lengths away from me.
So the black plume  of smoke from the city bus that gets in people's faces as they wait for their particular  smoke belching bus is not going to casue them any health related problems but raoul the smoker who smoked outside on the sidewalk right by the busstand is going to cause the ashma attack from hell?


Becareful of the guy cooking out with carcoal and that bonfire that is so famous in beach movies.  They have the same problem.
G1223 - I hate to tell you this - but yes.

Charcoal smoke and cigarette smoke (and fireplaces in some cases) often cause me to have asthma attacks, where exhaust does not.  Perhaps its because of the fact that regulation is already in place to remove some of the most harmful emissions from exhaust, or because of the way it disperses, I don't know.  But there's the facts from one person's point of view.

I note, however, the fact that you are ignoring the part of the rebuttal that points out that there are already lobbies actively working to solve the problem of noxious emissions in transportation and factories, and that there are already existing regulations in place to deal with that.  

I'm taking a break for today.  I just don't have the emotional bandwidth to watch people argue for the fun of it.

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght




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