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Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S

Prisons Crime Punishment US

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#21 Godeskian

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 11:52 AM

i honestly don't believe that anyone knows what's going on in Iraq at the moment. Soldiers, bloggers, Iraqi's, politicians, they are all putting their own spin on things, and i honestly don't know who to believe anymore

but what i do know is that people abusing prisoners are monsters, even if it doesn't reflect on other soldiers.

They shouldn't, they can't be excused if anyone is to retain a moral highground here.

#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 12:25 PM

Gaheris, on May 10 2004, 09:45 AM, said:

You still presume he's well-educated?
Really, the inability to be an effective public speaker has little to do with education or intelligence. There are total morons who can give great speeches; airhead actors play scientists with convincing-sounding dialogue on a regular basis, for instance. Similarly, there are a ton of elite acamedics who just suck at speeches.

The "Bushisms" approach is simply a misguided way of criticizing Bush, in my humble opinion. Far more serious-- to me-- is his reputation for being 'uncurious'. His proud admission with Brit Hume that he gets his news exclusively from his advisors is deeply troubling, for instance.
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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 12:54 PM

MuseZack, on May 10 2004, 09:00 AM, said:

So is this what we've come to?  "The United States-- not quite as bad as Stalin's Russia or communist China."
I fear this is EXACTLY what we've come to.  Someone accuses Bush or someone close to him of doing something wrong and I GUARANTEE that the usual suspects (who I fear are quite representative of prevailing or at least majority moral compass in this country) will say something to the effect of either "so it's shady, go look at what the other guy did" or "so what, he/she's a politician."

In my opinion heads should be rolling over this mess in Iraq.  But I doubt anyone high up enough in the chain of command, let alone Rummy, will even face criminal *charges* let alone the kind of punishment that is warranted here.  Because hey, it's war, war is hell, and hey, it's not like soldiers haven't been committing atrocities throughout time.  Never mind that we got IN to the war because of some naive macho guy's need to prove his worth to his daddy, never mind that we're sending KIDS to war (and I'm sorry, eigteen is a KID) without regard to  how their underdeveloped coping mechanisms are going to impact how they respond to the inevitable horrors they will witness.  Never mind that this country CLAIMS that this war is one of honor, one fought in the name of freedom and justice.  None of that means a damn because the majority will spout off the same morally bankrupt statements that those around here who excuse this on account of "it could be worse" spout off.

That's where we're at.  It makes me sick.

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 10 May 2004 - 12:56 PM.

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#24 Godeskian

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 12:58 PM

I wonder why i post at times when Lil can put it so much better than I

Lil, i agree completely with you

#25 Norville

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 01:04 PM

Quote

Quote

So is this what we've come to? "The United States-- not quite as bad as Stalin's Russia or communist China."
I fear this is EXACTLY what we've come to. Someone accuses Bush or someone close to him of doing something wrong and I GUARANTEE that the usual suspects (who I fear are quite representative of prevailing or at least majority moral compass in this country) will say something to the effect of either "so it's shady, go look at what the other guy did" or "so what, he/she's a politician."

Oh, you're so right. Isn't part of life for ethical people an attempt to constantly improve themselves? Not to make excuses like "So what if that was bad -- that's always going to happen. Anyway, look at what *they* did." It's guaranteed to stop me dead and make me stare like "What's your problem and why do you have an excuse for everything? Aren't we supposed to try to make life *better*?" (But what does morality mean these days? Not a lot. We all have to be ironic and laugh at the concept of ethics.)

An offshoot of this is someone saying that Bush ain't so great a leader -- someone else immediately attacks with "And Clinton was so much better, you Clinton-lover you?" What if *nothing was said about Clinton*? Why does everything have to be pro-Clinton if it's not so keen on Bush?

Quote

None of that means a damn because the majority will spout off the same morally bankrupt statements that those around here who excuse this on account of "it could be worse".

That's where we're at. It makes me sick.

Same here. Thanks for posting this, Lil.
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#26 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 01:09 PM

cyberhippie and Norville, believe me, I wish I *didn't* feel this way but there it is.
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#27 Godeskian

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 01:15 PM

I don't think any moral, ethical person wants to feel like this, but you do state it with elegance and passion

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#28 Rhea

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 02:58 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on May 9 2004, 08:35 PM, said:

First of all I do not condone those actions in either venue.  The difference however is that American PRISONS are populated by CONVICTED CRIMINALS.  Many of the people in Iraq were "detainees".  Certainly not convicted of any wrongdoing.  I don't appreciate the continued attempts to excuse the atrocities that are at issue here  (Not you LR but people who write articles like this in an attempt to obfuscate the real issue).
I'm with Lil on this one.
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#29 G-man

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 03:14 PM

The problem lies with the fact that Military Intelligence is involved with gathering information from these detainees, and they do tend to use inhumane means to "break" their subject to spill what information they have.  Normally, this process is kept wrapped in darkness so that no one will know what's going on, but in this case, it has seen the light of day.

The latest articles I've been seeing are suggesting that this is systemic throughout the prison system administered by the coalition forces, yet the reservist general in charge of the prisons was unaware that this was happening until after the investigation, and Rumsfeld is being lauded by the President for doing his bit in the war on terrorism.

What I fear will happen is that the Military will find their scapegoats, but continue committing these acts to route out the resistance cells that are firing on our troops.  IOW, right and wrong don't enter into it, it seems more a matter of doing whatever works against foes who insist on hiding among the innocent to conduct their operations in safety.

:glare:  

I am most unhappy that this war must be fought this way.

/s/

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#30 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 03:18 PM

G-man, on May 10 2004, 01:12 PM, said:

:glare:  

I am most unhappy that this war must be fought this way.

/s/

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MUST be fought this way????  What the hell?  Please tell me you aren't condoning this conduct as a necessary evil.
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#31 the 'Hawk

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 03:38 PM

^ I think the man's point was that it must be fought this way, in the sense that "those in charge make it inevitable", but I may be wrong.

Hey, it could be worse. We could be arguing over the cause of the war, rather than the effects. Oh, wait, that's still disputed, too!

I hope that John Kerry wins in November just so President Bush has this ambiguous legacy to call his own. The way he is managing this entire Iraq fiasco, ambiguous is more than he deserves in history's books. And, yes, he *is* managing this whole fiasco-- I refuse to point fingers at levels of chain of command or let him get away with the Reagan-era "naptime in America" sort of excuse he and Secretary Rumsfeld have both been playing off once too often.

If he wanted to be involved, if he wanted to know, he WOULD. But instead he expects to be allowed to play with his toys and walk away when things don't go his way. Sorry, Mr. President, but things don't work like that. And I hope that the American people call you on it in November.

John Kerry would probably be no better, but it sickens me how what might have been a good thing in the invasion of Iraq has been turned into such an unmitigated nightmare. Whether you want to regard it as a moral failure to do the right thing on all fronts or a military failure to win the peace after triumph in war or a political failure in completely depriving the Bush administration of even the semblance of credibility.... just take your pick, there's nightmares all over. And it's getting really hard to see that any dawn could be close at hand.

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#32 G-man

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 05:54 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on May 10 2004, 08:16 PM, said:

G-man, on May 10 2004, 01:12 PM, said:



:glare: 

I am most unhappy that this war must be fought this way.

/s/

Gloriosus
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MUST be fought this way????  What the hell?  Please tell me you aren't condoning this conduct as a necessary evil.

Condoning? No.  Recognizing an unsavory fact.  Yes.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 10 May 2004 - 06:01 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
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Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
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#33 Delvo

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:15 PM

But is it even practical? Have they seriously compared this approach to the results of the Cuba approach that had detainees talking about how good it was there and a few saying that now they knew all they'd been told about Americans before was false? I'm actually guessing that the latter would be more effective overall in this kind of war, unlike most wars.

#34 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:16 PM

G-man, on May 10 2004, 03:52 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on May 10 2004, 08:16 PM, said:

G-man, on May 10 2004, 01:12 PM, said:



:glare: 

I am most unhappy that this war must be fought this way.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
MUST be fought this way????  What the hell?  Please tell me you aren't condoning this conduct as a necessary evil.

Condoning? No.  Recognizing an unsavory fact.  Yes.

/s/

Gloriosus
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I see, so the abuse of prisoners, abuse which includes rape, is a necessary (albeit "unsavory" to all of us here safely ensconced in front of our computers) component of this military campaign?

I'm very disappointed that you think that but you prove exactly the point I made above about the state of this nation's moral compass.  Or what passes for one these days.  :(
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#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:18 PM

Delvo, on May 10 2004, 04:13 PM, said:

But is it even practical? Have they seriously compared this approach to the results of the Cuba approach that had detainees talking about how good it was there and a few saying that now they knew all they'd been told about Americans before was false? I'm actually guessing that the latter would be more effective overall in this kind of war, unlike most wars.
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#36 Rhea

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:26 PM

^ROTFLOL! :p~ :p~ :p~
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#37 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:32 PM

I knew you'd appreciate that you fangirl, you...;)
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#38 G1223

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 09:54 PM

G-man, on May 10 2004, 08:12 PM, said:

I am most unhappy that this war must be fought this way.
  And if it saves American lives and ends the fighting  would you do it? Or let people keep dying?
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#39 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 09:59 PM

Whoa! What a question.  My answer is yes.

I'm sad to say that I'm rapidly losing any concern I once had about the ordeal.  I'm being beaten with it on the news, on the net, etc. I'm getting to the point where I'm just saying to the media "fix the situation" and quit dwelling on how horrible it is."

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 10 May 2004 - 10:01 PM.

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#40 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 10:23 PM

^  Because it could be worse and the end of course justifies the means.  I'm sure Tyr Anasazi would approve.  I, however, do not nor should any country that touts itself as occupying the moral highground.
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