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U.S. Election

Election 2004 Bush Kerry

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Poll: If the Election was today, which candidate will you choose? (43 member(s) have cast votes)

If the Election was today, which candidate will you choose?

  1. Republican (Bush) (14 votes [32.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.56%

  2. Democrat (Kerry) (19 votes [44.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.19%

  3. Other (2 votes [4.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.65%

  4. Don't know/Don't answer (8 votes [18.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.60%

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#41 Rhea

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 10:10 AM

Drew, on May 14 2004, 06:10 AM, said:

Cyberhippie, on May 14 2004, 12:56 AM, said:

i'm not a US citizen, but i wouldn't vote for the incumbent president if you paid me. He has shown himself through actions to be a religious bigot, and I find that very dangerous for a country like america to have a leader in place who isn't just mouthing off helpfull religious comments to get votes, but who actually has a hardline opinion in favor of them in office.
So, you feel those who have deeply-held religious beliefs, and make decisions based on them, shouldn't be allowed to hold office?
Presidents with deeply held religious beliefs swear an OATH like all the others to be faithful to the Constitution of the United States. If George Bush felt incapable of keeping that oath due to holding to his religious beliefs at the expense of the Constitution he should never have taken office.

It's not much different in some respects from swearing an oath to participate on a jury. If you're not willing to do what is asked of you to fulfill that oath you should ask to be excused.

I would never serve on a drunk driver trial for a number of reasons - if I were ever called for such a jury I would ask to be excused because I can absolutely not be impartial or do my job as a juror.

We have separation of church and state for a reason - one that Bush shot in the foot the moment he asked Congress to pass an amendment stating that marriage must be between a man and a woman only. That proposed amendment is a blatant case of religion intruding into government, since its only basis is Biblical.

And we won't even talk about the war in Iraq, which Bush said himself he believes is God's will.  :eek:

Edited by Rhea, 14 May 2004 - 10:14 AM.

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- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#42 Rhea

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 10:46 AM

Javert Rovinski, on May 14 2004, 05:44 AM, said:

Do you honestly believe that we're just as bad as the Hussein regime? Seriously? That's mind-boggling.
OF COURSE we're not as bad as the Hussein regime.

But we've lost any moral high ground in Iraq with the abuse scandal (actually, as far as I'm concerned we lost it when we invaded them, but that's another argument).
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#43 Jid

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 10:53 AM

Since I can't vote in your lovely election, I naturally chose the "no answer" option ;)

But I will say, I sympathize with the people who say they're having a tough time deciding.  I know I'd be in your situation (and I will be come the fall election here in Canada to), if I could vote.

Personally, I'd kinda be hoping for a president that wasn't going to extend his powers by signing a declaration for continuing the National Emergency that was supposed to be ended in 1978, but has been extended every year, by every president since then. :wacko:
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#44 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 10:56 AM

Delvo, on May 14 2004, 07:40 AM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on May 14 2004, 07:44 AM, said:

Do you honestly believe that we're just as bad as the Hussein regime? Seriously? That's mind-boggling.
Maybe you'd be less boggled if you recalled that you're talking to the person who said Bush knew precisely about the September Eleventh attacks and chose to let them happen?
Hrm, must have missed that one...

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We have separation of church and state for a reason - one that Bush shot in the foot the moment he asked Congress to pass an amendment stating that marriage must be between a man and a woman only. That proposed amendment is a blatant case of religion intruding into government, since its only basis is Biblical.

First, that's not so; there are various arguments against homosexual marriage that don't rest on Christianity. Setting that aside, how can a constitutional amendment be unconstitutional? By definition, if it passes, it IS constitutional. If you're going to go down that route, Clinton is a much bigger problem: He passed the DOMA, which had the same effect without getting constitutional ratifaction.

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OF COURSE we're not as bad as the Hussein regime.

Well, GFM said we were. Just asking f or clarification.

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But we've lost any moral high ground in Iraq with the abuse scandal (actually, as far as I'm concerned we lost it when we invaded them, but that's another argument).

I disagree. There has to be a distinction between rogue elements that are punished and abuse sanctioned at the highest level. It's certainly bad, and I'm the first to say we should hang the guilty out to dry, but I don't think the moral high ground is lost, any more than it was in WWII when much worse atrocities occured...
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#45 Drew

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:19 AM

Rhea, on May 14 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

And we won't even talk about the war in Iraq, which Bush said himself he believes is God's will.  :eek:
Source, please.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#46 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:24 AM

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Bush does hold press conferences.
Yes - fewer than any other president in modern times - by nearly a factor of 5 - that's secretive in my book. But don't take my word for it...

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First There Is a Press Conference, Then There Is No Press Conference, Then There Is ...
Timothy Noah
Posted Thursday, March 29, 2001, at 1:24 PM PT


Yesterday, the Associated Press reported that President Bush would hold no more formal press conferences. Today, President Bush held a press conference. Chatterbox prides himself on having a subtle mind, but this Zen riddle threw him for a loop. Is Bush holding press conferences, or isn't he? He decided to investigate.

First stop: White House press secretary Ari Fleischer's March 28 briefing. Here's the exchange in full (pardon the length, but the path to enlightenment was never short):
Here's the link to the full article http://slate.msn.com/id/1007389/

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And when did anybody in the administration refer to their critics as unpatriotic or accuse them of treason?

Karl Rove is the Chief evil lord of that duty - but don't take my word for it...

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(From New York Review - 2003) ...In the 2002 midterm elections, Rove was more active than any White House adviser had ever been before. He was instrumental not only in selecting Senate candidates but also, as in the case of North Carolina's Elizabeth Dole, in discouraging others from running. He had done the same in Texas. From Rove's fertile imagination came the idea, months before the 2002 midterm elections, in which control of the Senate was at stake, to capitalize on the Senate Democrats' opposition to the part of the bill creating a Department of Homeland Security which denied its employees traditional civil service protections. This was seen as a way to break the power of the public employees union, which supports the Democrats. Norquist believes that the union is a force for the expansion of government. Democrats who opposed the bill because of its anti-union provisions were branded "unpatriotic."

At first, it seemed absurd to make a critical campaign issue over a bill to create a new federal department. But Bush was willing to do so, and it testified to Rove's dark genius that the strategy worked. In a speech by Rove to the Republican National Committee in January 2002, he urged Republicans to take political advantage of Bush's war on terrorism, arguing that the public has more confidence in Republicans on national defense. There's reason to suspect that the resolution approving war against Iraq was deliberately timed by Rove and Bush to occur just before the 2002 midterm election.

The charge of a lack of patriotism helped to defeat Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, who had lost two legs and an arm in the Vietnam War. Of course it was outrageous to brand Cleland "unpatriotic," but Bush and Rove are not easily embarrassed. Bush, for all his supposedly easygoing manner, is apparently no less ruthless than his mentor. A television ad showed Cleland along with pictures of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. The Republican senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, himself a Vietnam veteran, was so incensed by the ad that he threatened to run his own ad endorsing Cleland unless it was canceled. After Hagel's vehement protests, it was, but the damage had been done.

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I honestly do not think our society can withstand four more years without total collapse. The cracks are already starting to show - and they are getting worse fast.

Specifically?

Sure - Thanks to the failing policies of the "Leave no child behind" Bush administration education funding is being cut again - Colleges around the country are raising tuition an average of 30% this year alone. Not only is the education of our children getting less money - our children are getting less education and fewer people can afford college educations - thanks to this utterly failing policy, there will be fewer skilled, high tech workers to do the jobs of the future, and that means less money to spend for things like education - not that global companies - the ones which support Bush with so much cash he's drowning in it - will feel the impact - they will just move their high-tech facilities over seas where they DO educate their children and people can go to college (Usually because the governments in those places pay for it, i.e. India, Germany) - this vicioous cycle will further erode the standard of living for the middle class and people like Bush and Cheney (And let's face it Kerry and his billionairess wife) won't notice a difference - well except their servants might not be immigrants anymore. They will be people who used to have good jobs - before they got shipped overseas.

Additionally, let's see - Juvenile crime up 23%, Teen pregnancy - up nearly 18% in the last two years alone - But the real tragedy is the deep ideological divisions among us - ten years ago you could see parity between dem's and repub's on a number of issues - not the religious ones like abortion or the obvious ones like gun control - but in terms of fiscal sanity, legislative cohesion and such - thanks to "The Great Divider" we are more split apart as a country than at any time since right before the civil war. If any one person could be held responsible for that - it's Bush.

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So, let me get this straight: That excuse used by a few enlisted officers is a fault of the Bush administration, with NO evidence that the orders even came from that high? What kind of evidence do you have for that?

You don't need evidence of some vast conspiracy and the orders didn't NEED to come from on high - any Captain of any ship will tell you that he (or she) is responsible for the actions of each and every soldier serving under him and were one of those people to do something wrong the captain knows he (or she) MUST take PERSONAL responsibility - yet that doesn't seem to apply anymore, at least not to this administration. The fact that the senior leadership of the Army and Rummy are NOT taking responsibility is part and parcel of the Bush Administrations prevailaing attitude of "I did nothing Wrong" and "It's not my fault" - and then they are surprised when that attitude is reflected in the soldier on the front? That is mind-boggling to me. The Japanese have a concept called Giri - it means personal responsibility - were this a Japanese problem it would lead to the resignations of many high level governemnt officials who would step up and take responsibility for the things which happened on their watch - something the Bush administration would never do - a sign of arrogance.

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Do you honestly believe that we're just as bad as the Hussein regime? Seriously?

In a world of 256 shades of gray, no we aren't anywhere NEAR the hussein regime in terms of brutality or anything else - but Arabs and a lot of the rest of the world don't see things as that spectrum of gray shades - they see things as black or white - and we have crossed that line over to black and I'm not sure we can ever get back across it - letting Rummy keep his job is tantamount to acceptance in the eyes of many foreigners - arabs especially - they've seen all of this before with other players and other leaders paying lipservice and they don't buy it. Neither do I. In order to have the moral high ground we needed to be ever vigilant and make sure that all of our prisoners were treated fairly - we didn't and so we lose the "Moral Authority" card and are now just another Christian Zionist invader. That may not be the way I see it - or you, but it's the way people in that area of the world see it, and nothing, absolutely nothing the Bush administration does or says will ever change that - only a change of government will, and honestly that might not do it either.

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Presidents with deeply held religious beliefs swear an OATH like all the others to be faithful to the Constitution of the United States. If George Bush felt incapable of keeping that oath due to holding to his religious beliefs at the expense of the Constitution he should never have taken office.

Here Here Rhea!

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We have separation of church and state for a reason - one that Bush shot in the foot the moment he asked Congress to pass an amendment stating that marriage must be between a man and a woman only. That proposed amendment is a blatant case of religion intruding into government, since its only basis is Biblical. And we won't even talk about the war in Iraq, which Bush said himself he believes is God's will. 

And it's comments like that which force me to believe that this man Bush is causing lasting damage to our society. It's cohesion, it's flexibility, it's structure - all decaying. Our identity as Americans is being attacked and destroyed. He is destroying us from the inside and a lot of people are letting him do it deluded by the rhetoric and believeing he has their best interests at heart - he doesn't. He is dividing us at our peril and I cannot fathom why. One of the surest signs of decay in a society is when people stop identifying themselves as a whole and start identifying themselves with a smaller group - usually religious or idealogical. Which is what is happening to us - thanks to this administration and their governing philosophy of creating strife and sowing distrust. People have stopped identifying themselves as American and have started to think of themselves as something else first, American second. Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein BOTH predicted this would be the first step to the dissolution of the USA - and their predictions are coming true.

:eek4:
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#47 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:24 AM

Drew, on May 14 2004, 09:17 AM, said:

Rhea, on May 14 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

And we won't even talk about the war in Iraq, which Bush said himself he believes is God's will.  :eek:
Source, please.
AFAIK, the closest he came is this:

http://www.washingto...6&notFound=true

Quote

"You know he [Bush 41] is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#48 Gvambat

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:32 AM

silverwind, on May 14 2004, 12:18 AM, said:

Was it *really* necessary to drag out the Wizard of Oz jokes?  Huh?  Was it? :p~
It's always necesary to drag out the Wizard of Oz jokes! Every Kansan knows that!

:p
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#49 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:33 AM

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Yes - fewer than any other president in modern times - by nearly a factor of 5 - that's secretive in my book. But don't take my word for it...

Okay, but you said he didn't. I'm glad we got that cleared up. :ninja:

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The charge of a lack of patriotism helped to defeat Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, who had lost two legs and an arm in the Vietnam War. Of course it was outrageous to brand Cleland "unpatriotic," but Bush and Rove are not easily embarrassed. Bush, for all his supposedly easygoing manner, is apparently no less ruthless than his mentor. A television ad showed Cleland along with pictures of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. The Republican senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, himself a Vietnam veteran, was so incensed by the ad that he threatened to run his own ad endorsing Cleland unless it was canceled. After Hagel's vehement protests, it was, but the damage had been done.

Those ads were certainly bad, but I don't recall them questioning his patriotism, merely his judgement. I'll see if I can dig up an actual transcript.

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Sure - Thanks to the failing policies of the "Leave no child behind" Bush administration

... and the same policy supported by that right wing wacko, Ted Kennedy.

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is being cut again - Colleges around the country are raising tuition an average of 30% this year alone.

... and there's still scholarships, subsidized loans, pell grants, and work-aid programs. Going to a state school is affordable.

And can you cite your statistics about crime, and about college funding? Is that private schools or state schools?

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You don't need evidence of some vast conspiracy and the orders didn't NEED to come from on high - any Captain of any ship will tell you that he (or she) is responsible for the actions of each and every soldier serving under him and were one of those people to do something wrong the captain knows he (or she) MUST take PERSONAL responsibility - yet that doesn't seem to apply anymore, at least not to this administration.

So, the president should have resigned over atrocities commited in WWII? I'm just making sure I have this straight.

Example:

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ATROCITIES IN SICILY
(1943)
Many massacres of prisoners of war were committed by the American 45th (Thunderbird) Division during the invasion of Sicily in 1943. At Comise airfield, a truck load of German prisoners were machine-gunned as they climbed down on to the tarmac, prior to be air-lifted out. Later the same day, 60 Italian prisoners were cut down the same way. On July 14, thirty six prisoners were gunned down near Gela by their guard, US Sergeant Barry West. At Buttera airfield, US Captain Jerry Compton, lined up his 43 prisoners against a wall and machine-gunned them to death. West and Compton were both arrested and convicted of murder. They were sent to the front where both were later killed in action. On April 29, 1945, units of the 45th. liberated the concentration camp of Dachau where more atrocities were committed.

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In a world of 256 shades of gray, no we aren't anywhere NEAR the hussein regime in terms of brutality or anything else

You just said we were :wacko:

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In order to have the moral high ground we needed to be ever vigilant and make sure that all of our prisoners were treated fairly - we didn't and so we lose the "Moral Authority" card and are now just another Christian Zionist invader. That may not be the way I see it - or you, but it's the way people in that area of the world see it, and nothing, absolutely nothing the Bush administration does or says will ever change that - only a change of government will, and honestly that might not do it either.

I suppose we'll see. TBH, I've been surprised how little fallout there has been from the photos. I often think that the Conventional Wisdom™ doesn't give nearly enough credit to the ability of Arabs to perceive nuance.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 14 May 2004 - 11:40 AM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#50 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:59 AM

Quote

I suppose we'll see. TBH, I've been surprised how little fallout there has been from the photos. I often think that the Conventional Wisdom™ doesn't give nearly enough credit to the ability of Arabs to perceive nuance.

Oh I agree - at least the moderate, educated ones - but they were never the problem were they? Any scrap which can be used as grist for the "Let's get the Americans" mill by the like of Al-Sadr MUST be reduced beyond a minimum to nothing.
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#51 HubcapDave

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:24 PM

Quote

Do you honestly believe that we're just as bad as the Hussein regime? Seriously? That's mind-boggling.

EDIT: I think this lays out the contrast rather nicely... http://www.opinionjo...r/?id=110005081

Excellent Op Ed piece! Thanks for finding it Rov!

Why can't news outlets find equal time to report the good stuff we do over there?

#52 Godeskian

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:44 PM

Javert Rovinski, on May 14 2004, 05:22 PM, said:

Drew, on May 14 2004, 09:17 AM, said:

Rhea, on May 14 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

And we won't even talk about the war in Iraq, which Bush said himself he believes is God's will.  :eek:
Source, please.
AFAIK, the closest he came is this:

http://www.washingto...

Quote

"You know he [Bush 41] is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.
please tell me you don't think that's the only time George W Bush has invoked the allmighty?
:rolleyes:
the man can't say three words without invoking the Christian God, and i'm perfectly willing to quote chapter and verse with sources if youdon't believe me.

#53 tennyson

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:47 PM

That wasn't the statement in contention, what was in contention was that the current Bush had made any statement about wether the invasion of Iraq was God's will not any other larger issue and Rov's response was based on that specific issue, not making a larger statement.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#54 Godeskian

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:51 PM

aside from calling it a crusade (again, quotes and links available) no

but Crusade is a bit of a loaded term isn't it.

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#55 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:53 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on May 14 2004, 09:57 AM, said:

Oh I agree - at least the moderate, educated ones - but they were never the problem were they? Any scrap which can be used as grist for the "Let's get the Americans" mill by the like of Al-Sadr MUST be reduced beyond a minimum to nothing.
We're doing the best we can. But slip-ups are, sadly, inevitable...

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Excellent Op Ed piece! Thanks for finding it Rov!

APOTS.

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Why can't news outlets find equal time to report the good stuff we do over there?

In part, it's because the "Vietnam" script was already written. Afghanistan was going to be Vietnam, then the Iraq combat phase was going to be Vietnam, and now they're trying to make the current operations into Vietnam. If Iraq turns out well, then the next conflict will still be "another Vietnam". It's been said that when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to begin looking like a nail. Similarly, when your military frame of reference is defined by Vietnam, everything starts looking like a quagmire. This trend will only end when the news anchors are people who don't personally remember the conflict, I believe.

In part, it's because much of the media is liberal, and simply doesn't want Bush to look good.

The biggest part, however, is sensationalism. The media believes that you want to hear bad news, because it keeps you rivited. They believe that the American people have more of an appetite for, "One hundred protestors march" than "Soldiers refurbish school". Maybe they're right.

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please tell me you don't think that's the only time George W Bush has invoked the allmighty?

I didn't say that. What I did say is that to the best of my knowledge, it's the closest he's come to outright saying that the US intervention in Iraq is god's will. If you have a quote that I don't, please share.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#56 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 12:57 PM

Thanks tennyson.

Quote

aside from calling it a crusade (again, quotes and links available) no

but Crusade is a bit of a loaded term isn't it.

Yeah, here's an example:

http://www.reuters.c...storyID=4858038

Quote

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Years after President Bush set off alarm bells in the Muslim world by referring to his war against terrorism as a "crusade," the word that Arabs equate with Christian brutality has resurfaced in a Bush campaign fund-raising letter, officials acknowledged on Sunday.
The March 3 letter, which Bush-Cheney Campaign Chairman Marc Racicot sent to new campaign charter members in Florida, lauded the Republican president for "leading a global crusade against terrorism" while citing evidence of Bush's "strong, steady leadership during difficult times."

The fact that they're "traumatized" by the very word Crusade says far more about them than it does about us, however. And in context, there was clearly no religious intent involved.

It's a black irony that the part of the world with the least civil liberties has the most active PC police. Or perhaps not so ironic after all....
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#57 HubcapDave

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 01:10 PM

I've been meaning to ask, what does APOTS mean?

Quote

QUOTE 
Why can't news outlets find equal time to report the good stuff we do over there?



In part, it's because the "Vietnam" script was already written. Afghanistan was going to be Vietnam, then the Iraq combat phase was going to be Vietnam, and now they're trying to make the current operations into Vietnam. If Iraq turns out well, then the next conflict will still be "another Vietnam". It's been said that when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to begin looking like a nail. Similarly, when your military frame of reference is defined by Vietnam, everything starts looking like a quagmire. This trend will only end when the news anchors are people who don't personally remember the conflict, I believe.

In part, it's because much of the media is liberal, and simply doesn't want Bush to look good.

The biggest part, however, is sensationalism. The media believes that you want to hear bad news, because it keeps you rivited. They believe that the American people have more of an appetite for, "One hundred protestors march" than "Soldiers refurbish school". Maybe they're right.

My question was a bit on the rhetorical side, but thanks for answering it anyway! ;)

#58 Gefiltefishmon

Gefiltefishmon

    Oolong Caluphids Private Secretary

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 01:25 PM

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And can you cite your statistics about crime, and about college funding? Is that private schools or state schools?

With Pleasure!  :D

Crime - According to the Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics They have a website, but the address escapes me at the moment - the most recent data is in their report available at most university libraries; reported crimes have gone up an aggregate total of nearly 200,000 per year, every year since Bush took office - by comparison crime decreased EVERY YEAR bill clinton was in office. So Nu?

Education - from the Princeton Review

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What's The Cost of a College Education?

Every year, the price of a college education goes up. In the past couple of years the rate of increase at private colleges has actually slowed, the result in part of market forces: Families have been turning to state schools in greater numbers, forcing the private colleges to cut their prices, or at least to slow the increase of their prices. Partly in response to increased demand and partly because state budgets have been slashed, the rate of tuition increase at state schools has risen dramatically -- especially for out-of-state students who must pay extra. Will these trends continue? Let's look at some numbers.

Average Annual Cost of a Private College in...
       
2002: $24,851        2010: $36,717
2003: $26,094        2011: $38,553 
2004: $27,399        2012: $40,480
2005: $28,769        2013: $42,504
2006: $30,207        2014: $44,630
2007: $31,717        2015: $46,861
2008: $33,303        2016: $49,204 
2009: $34,968        2017: $51,664

Average Annual Cost of a Public University in...
2002: $9,338         2010: $13,797
2003: $9,805         2011: $14,487 
2004: $10,295       2012: $15,211
2005: $10,810       2013: $15,971
2006: $11,351       2014: $16,770
2007: $11,918       2015: $17,609
2008: $12,514       2016: $18,489 
2009: $13,140       2017: $19,413

Keep in mind that the data those tables were based upon is already outdated as many states are approving record setting tuition hikes this year - Including the Cal state system (18% just this year) and here in Ohio, Ohio State raised tuition for a full time student by $800 per year making tuition per per year at Ohio State $7,495 aprox .... So some schools are WAY ahead of the curve, some are behind it - and some sit on it.

So my eight month old daughter is going to cost me nearly $100,000 to send to College - and that's not even a Great school! IF price increases trend higher (which they have the last two years) - meaning the rate of increase increases, even that meay be out of my reach. And forget about sending her to my Alma Mater, unless I hit the lottery I'll never be able to afford to send her to the same College I went to (Columbia), let alone Grad School...


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Sure - Thanks to the failing policies of the "Leave no child behind" Bush administration




... and the same policy supported by that right wing wacko, Ted Kennedy.

Why would you identify TK as a right wing wacko? I'm not being a noodge but is that sarcasm? Well - and don't get me wrong I think TK is a disaster and a fool - but he's A) not president and B) didn't get [ahem] elected based on a promise to leave no child behind - Which the POTUS did and then went back on his promise - now would that be waffling or just plain old dishonest "Going back on what I said"?
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#59 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 01:39 PM

Javert Rovinski, on May 14 2004, 12:51 PM, said:

Quote

Why can't news outlets find equal time to report the good stuff we do over there?

In part, it's because the "Vietnam" script was already written. Afghanistan was going to be Vietnam, then the Iraq combat phase was going to be Vietnam, and now they're trying to make the current operations into Vietnam. If Iraq turns out well, then the next conflict will still be "another Vietnam". It's been said that when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to begin looking like a nail. Similarly, when your military frame of reference is defined by Vietnam, everything starts looking like a quagmire.
Which makes it really ironic that Kerry keeps using his record in the "quagmire" as a selling point of his campaign.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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