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Gay Marriage Legal In Massachusetts

LGBT Same Sex Marriage Massachusetts

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#41 Godeskian

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 04:32 PM

Nick, on May 18 2004, 10:27 PM, said:

I don't see why a minister/priest can't use their legal authority
i'm curious, what exactly does a priest have to do to gain this authority?

#42 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 04:43 PM

Nope it's a terrible idea.  Especially if the ceremony is conducted in a church.
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#43 Delvo

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 04:52 PM

Chakotay, on May 18 2004, 12:36 PM, said:

I'm just waiting for the furore of the first contested gay divorce to go through the courts...
The courts might actually be concerned about their ability to take up the additional divorce load, if they've noticed that recent study showing that homosexual "marriages" are more likely to break up than hetereosexual ones, by over 50% between men and higher than that between women (although I don't recall whether the number was 75, 80, or close to 100).

#44 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 04:56 PM

"study"??????  Give me a break.  Based on what?  Their long time study of formalized legal gay unions?  Because like they've been around forever and there's SOOOOOOOOO very many of them to study right?  :wacko:   What utter and complete crap.
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#45 Godeskian

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 04:59 PM

i'm not actually sure, but i'd see if Holland has done any studies on this. They've had gay marriages for a few years now and possibly have some statistical evidence.

#46 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 05:06 PM

Yes but there can't possibly be any valid study of the likelihood of a successful marriage in the United States because there's no tradition of allowing such unions and giving gay couples the same legal benefits hetero American couples receive.  Any such study is a red herring, designed to deflect attention from the way that the astronomical divorce rate in this country severly undercuts the argument that marriage is something that needs its "sanctity" protected.

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 May 2004 - 05:25 PM.

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#47 Godeskian

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 05:18 PM

true

#48 Nick

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 05:23 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on May 18 2004, 06:04 PM, said:

Yes but their can't possibly be any valid study of the likelihood of a successful marriage in the United States because there's no tradition of allowing such unions and giving gay couples the same legal benefits hetero American couples receive.  Any such study is a red herring, designed to deflect attention from the way that the astronomical divorce rate in this country severly undercuts the argument that marriage is something that needs its "sanctity" protected.
^What she said. ;)

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#49 Delvo

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 07:21 PM

Cyberhippie, on May 18 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

i'm not actually sure, but i'd see if Holland has done any studies on this. They've had gay marriages for a few years now and possibly have some statistical evidence.
This one covered eight years; it comes from Sweden.

Institute of Marriage and Public Policy

#50 Rov Judicata

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 07:38 PM

Delvo, on May 18 2004, 05:19 PM, said:

This one covered eight years; it comes from Sweden.

Institute of Marriage and Public Policy
That's a good rundown. The primary source however, is a good read. After skimming, however, there are no important differences between the summary you provided and the content of the full paper.

The only question that remains is why it matters, even assuming it can be extrapolated to the United States. The study also found that couples who have an average age below 30 are 30% more likely to get divorced, and it's nearly double when it's one non-European and one Swede... which is 33% more than the divorce rate of gay (male/male) couples. Among couples who both only have high school degrees, the risk is 225% that of average, which is 150% of the risk of male/male couples. Should marriage require a college degree to keep the divorce rate down?
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#51 Pip

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 07:58 PM

Another problem with trying to find statistical evidence is that we can never be 100% sure if the test wasn't biased.  You can never have a 100% confident study therefore, is this evidence statistically accurate to the population as a whole.  

(thank you Statistics class, I actually learned something.  ;) )

I also agree with a lot of what Lil and Nick have said.  I think that differentiating between a civil union under the eyes of the law and a religious marriage ceremony should be recognized as two completely separate mediums.
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#52 Delvo

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 09:04 PM

Javert Rovinski, on May 18 2004, 06:36 PM, said:

After skimming, however, there are no important differences between the summary you provided and the content of the full paper.
That's probably because both of our links are the same URL. :D

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The only question that remains is why it matters
Mainly because it cancels out the pro-gay-marriage side's talk about how heterosexual marriage is meaningless and invalid because people get divorced too much whereas homosexual couples have such a deep, committed, eternal love that those loveless, divorce-happy heteros could never understand... and, in this case, because somebody made me think of it by mentioning the effect this latest news could have on divorce courts.

#53 Cardie

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 09:11 PM

The only way to sort this out is to require a trip to city hall to sign a civil union license for any couples who wish to enter into a domestic partnership.  These licenses would not be able to be issued by either clergy or ship's captains, only by state and municipal employees tasked to issue them. Such license is a binding legal contract whose rights and responsibilities are defined by the states and recognized by the Feds.  To confer any additional secular legal status, benefits or requirements based on some couples also (or instead of) going through with a religious marriage would be considered discriminatory and thus illegal.  Problem solved, no constitutional amendment required.  If some voters and legislators don't want civil unions to confer tax breaks, survivor benefits, etc. on civil unions, they can lobby to have them abolished for all couples in domestic partnerships.  :devil:

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#54 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 09:16 PM

Thank you Cardie.  Again.
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#55 Delvo

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 09:19 PM

Pip, on May 18 2004, 06:56 PM, said:

we can never be 100% sure if the test wasn't biased.
I can tell this was done by true scientific researchers at heart because it ends the way all serious scientific research papers do: with a paragraph that starts with "More research is needed..." :D

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is this evidence statistically accurate to the population as a whole.
It IS the whole population of registered unions & marriages, not a sample.

#56 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 09:23 PM

And it has NADA, ZERO, ZILCH, NOTHING to do with the United States because there is not a statistically viable sample of gay "married couples" here let alone a long standing tradition of such a thing to draw on.  R E D  H E R R I N G.  :p~

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 May 2004 - 09:24 PM.

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#57 StarDust

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 10:04 PM

Javert Rovinski, on May 18 2004, 08:36 PM, said:

Should marriage require a college degree to keep the divorce rate down?
Good one!  :)

The whole thing is silly.  People are people, regardless of who they love.  Homosexuals, heterosexuals, whatever.  Some are good, some bad.  Some cheat, some are committed. Some are philanderers, which I think has more to do with being male than sexual preference, some are monogamous. Some get married too early, some get married for all the wrong reasons, some don't really know who they are marrying until the deed is done and the 'real' person shows themself. The fact that anyone stays married is a miracle.  Considering the extra pressure gay people have, the fact there are couples that have been together for decades to be absolutely amazing and a testament to how committed and loving they are.

I fail to understand how this affects the institution of marriage in a bad way.  These are people that want to have a committed relationship with one other individual.  I would think that would be something we encourage, not discourage.  It's illogical and makes no sense in any manner. The only arguments against gay marriage inevitably have to do with religion, and like everything else in that area, it should be up to the individual.  Marriage is not a religious institution, and religious believes should not govern any law in this country. It's the whole point of the country from the beginning.  The fact that religions condone marriage with various ceremonies is all well and good, and they don't have to condone it if they don't want to.  No priest, minister, rabbi has to marry anyone, and often don't for all kinds of reasons.  But marriage is a civil, governmental institution. That's why it exists in all countries, and in all religions.  And some one can get married in a church wedding, but if they don't sign the marriage certificate, a civil legal document, they are not married.  I don't know of a better test than that.  People want to make their own marriages about religion, that's fine.  They have no business making those kinds of decisions, never mind dictating that requirement, to anyone else.

#58 Drew

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 10:26 PM

Cardie, on May 18 2004, 09:09 PM, said:

The only way to sort this out is to require a trip to city hall to sign a civil union license for any couples who wish to enter into a domestic partnership.  These licenses would not be able to be issued by either clergy or ship's captains, only by state and municipal employees tasked to issue them.
That's already required of anyone who gets married. Clergy cannot issue a marriage license.
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#59 Kevin Street

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 03:27 AM

Howard Dean (Remember him?) wrote a very interesting opinion piece on what happened in Vermont when they recognized same-sex partnerships. Well worth reading...

Vermont's lessons on gay marriage


(via Salon.com's "War Room")

Edited by Kevin Street, 19 May 2004 - 03:28 AM.


#60 Godeskian

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 03:38 AM

interesting read.



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