Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Torture, Terrorism and Safety

Terrorism Torture

  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 07 March 2003 - 02:28 AM

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, as you know, has been captured.

The recent debate is whether he should be tortured to get the information he no doubt haves.

What do you think?

I'll weigh in with my thoughts later.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 07 March 2003 - 02:32 AM

He probably already has been tortured. It's kind of a moot discussion.

But really, he doesn't have any constitutional protections, as he is no doubt an "unlawful combatant" or whatever they're calling bad-guys nowadays.

Plus, no matter what they might tell you, they're going to torture him anyway. It's like the war on Iraq. Sure. Protest and bitch about it all you want. The administration will act in its own best interest. Not yours. Its. Tough luck. Have a cigar.

Sorry, I'm so cynical about the Bush approach to getting what it wants at this point, I really don't see what the point of discussing this would be-- they don't listen to plebes and screwballs anyway. No matter how many of them there might be.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#3 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 07 March 2003 - 03:00 AM

It's not even really about Bush or American policies. The guy was captured by the ISI, a Pakistani agency, and he's in their hands being interrogated under their rules.

A commentator with connections in Pakistan said that Pakistan is willing to use some forms of "torture", such as sleep and sensory deprivation, but not the more viscerally extreme ones. But they start out an interrogation without them and go only as far as they deem necessary based on what they're getting that way. In their view, there are drugs that are more effective and practical than torture these days... especially on fanatics like this guy, who might be angered more than worn down.

For an important captive like him, I wouldn't care at all about his comfort or lack thereof; how he's treated must be determined only by how effective and reliable of a method it is for getting done what needs to be done. The war effort in general is too important to be sacrificed just to be nice to him. And that's why he's still in Pakistani control; those people aren't held back by American squeamishness about doing unpleasant things that must be done.

#4 Taryn Wander'r

Taryn Wander'r

    scott pilgrim's precious little lover

  • Islander
  • 605 posts

Posted 07 March 2003 - 03:27 AM

Of course they're going to torture him...

But I've always wondered how reliable information gained from torture even IS.

#5 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 07 March 2003 - 04:12 AM

Well it's mostly we use interrogation techinques. Big difference is torture while it's to get info out it usually involves pain.  We use sleep deparvation and could use sensory depervation tanks to ruin Rem patterns and crack the guy open to get the info. A good example of modern techiques can be found in Clancy's Cardnial in the Kriemlin.

The question to me is can the guy get a fair trial. I doudt it but our needs to saves lives might be questioned when it comes to having a fair trial. If this was France or Germany they woud get the info and the dispose of the body. So would the Russians or send them to labor camps.

Terrorism has the problem these men and women are willing to do everything to get their targets. They do not care about innocent people they will murder,assualt,or kidnap to achieve their ends.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#6 iMel

iMel

    New and improved!

  • Islander
  • 2,338 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:10 AM

Although I don't believe in torture when it isn't a last resort, I think they should do what they have to do to get information from him to save the lives of people that could be killed by the other terrorists in connection to him.
I use these words pretty loosely. There's so much more to life than words.
--Over the Rhine, "Latter Days"


Formerly known as Neozephryus :)

#7 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,149 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:16 AM

Give him a Jack Danials IV, and see what he says.
Can't Touch This!!

#8 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:16 AM

Why does it matter whether he has constitutional protections.  Aren't human rights human rights?  Or is it okay to commit human rights violations because "we're the good guys, it's what we do?"

I'm not trying to be confrontational (well okay, I admit I'm having the mother of all lousy days and maybe I am being confrontational) but asking a question or three.
Posted Image

#9 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:18 AM

There's also the problem of whether or not torture would extract anything meaningful from this guy anyway.

Not only do tortured people tend to blurt out anything to make it stop, making their confessions suspect, but he's probably also been trained *not* to blurt things out, even under torture.

So I have to wonder if that will come into play at all.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#10 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:20 AM

I guess the question is this:

If inflicting pain on this man-- even if it's grevious, inhuman, ghastly pain-- saves thousands of lives, does that make it right?

If we could have prevented 9/11 by torturing one man, wouldn't that have been worth it?

The thought of torture is troubling.

At the same time, I can't look at three thousand dead and say, "Our principles are more important than your lives.". Or to a child: "You'll never see your parents again because we live in a society of laws....".

This man has valuable information. We need it.

I don't think torture would be right. But the more I think about it, the more it seems.... neccasary.

And the fact that I can even think like that is a sad indication of how much the world has changed in two years.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#11 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and about torture not being effective:

I don't think that's neccasarily a problem.

If we had *one* source, then we'd be in trouble. But we can verify everything we get out of him with other channels. He'd break. By now, he's probably well on the way to being broken.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#12 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,149 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 12:25 AM

Quote

If inflicting pain on this man-- even if it's grevious, inhuman, ghastly pain-- saves thousands of lives, does that make it right?


I could not condone torture, but drugs that will do little damage to him will loosen his tounge. If he is true to Islam, he's never had a strong drink, hence the Jack Danials IV. A little THC perhaps. Many things will put your mouth in gear, and you never realize what you are saying till you've said it.
Can't Touch This!!

#13 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 01:13 AM

What do you define as torture?  

I don’t think you’ll see much torture in the conventional beat the living daylights sense used on him.  It just doesn’t work as well as movies and popular media tends to make it sound.  If anything it cements the person’s resolve and gives them a reason and thing to focus on for resisting.  Or to put it another way why crack the body when you can skip it in favor of cracking the mind?  Sensory deprivation in conjunction with substances like truth serums; then use a polygraph to confirm it.    


Of and some interesting new related to this topic.  


Bin Laden's Sons Reportedly Arrested

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 08 March 2003 - 01:14 AM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#14 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 02:13 AM

the'Hawk, on Mar 7 2003, 09:15 PM, said:

There's also the problem of whether or not torture would extract anything meaningful from this guy anyway.

Not only do tortured people tend to blurt out anything to make it stop, making their confessions suspect, but he's probably also been trained *not* to blurt things out, even under torture.

So I have to wonder if that will come into play at all.

:cool:
Aside from the serious legal, moral, and ethical implications, the practical argument against torture is a good one.  As others have pointed out, many people will say anything under torture just to make the pain stop.  Look at the bizarre and ridiculous confessions obtained during the Spanish Inquisition, the Albigensian Crusades, the dissolution of the Knights Templar, and Stalin's purges.  People readily confessed to crimes they hadn't committed, made up fanciful stories, and implicated innocent people.  Is that the kind of company we want to be keeping, especially when other, more humane methods of interrogation exist?

And in other cases, as CJ points out, torture actually fortifies the resolve of the victim.  Here's an excerpt from a 1963 CIA Training Manual on the subject (and yeah, it's a bit chilling that such manuals exist): "If an interrogatee is caused to suffer pain rather late in the interrogation process and after other tactics have failed," the manual says, "he is almost certain to conclude that the interrogator is becoming desperate. Interrogatees who have withstood pain are more difficult to handle by other methods. The effect has been not to repress the subject, but to restore his confidence and maturity."

Finally, one issue that hasn't been mentioned yet is the corrosive effect that torture can have on the perpetrators as well as victims (what kind of malformations to the psyche are caused by being expected to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings?), as well as society at large.  Argentina, Chile, and Brazil are still recovering from their "dirty wars" of the 1970s in which torture was widespread and condoned, an experience I hope the United States can still avoid.

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#15 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 02:35 AM

MuseZack, on Mar 7 2003, 11:10 PM, said:

And in other cases, as CJ points out, torture actually fortifies the resolve of the victim. Here's an excerpt from a 1963 CIA Training Manual on the subject (and yeah, it's a bit chilling that such manuals exist): "If an interrogatee is caused to suffer pain rather late in the interrogation process and after other tactics have failed," the manual says, "he is almost certain to conclude that the interrogator is becoming desperate. Interrogatees who have withstood pain are more difficult to handle by other methods. The effect has been not to repress the subject, but to restore his confidence and maturity."
Actually to the contrary I find it more reassuring that such a booklet exists.  It shows that as early as 1963 that interrogation to inflict pain was all ready going out of vogue.  I think you would find that any serious professional integrator would abhor torture not just for ethical reasons but the detrimental effects it has on getting good information.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 08 March 2003 - 02:35 AM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#16 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 02:36 AM

^

I'm glad that there are ways other than torture. I am. And CJ is right about the book.

But I guess the hypothetical still remains, and it is a fascinating one. :).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#17 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 02:57 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Mar 7 2003, 11:33 PM, said:

^

I'm glad that there are ways other than torture. I am. And CJ is right about the book.

But I guess the hypothetical still remains, and it is a fascinating one. :).
The hypothetical is interesting (and a good thing, too, since 24 milked half a season of drama out of it), and even has a name in human rights and philosophical literature: "the ticking bomb scenario."  In its starkest form, it's the moral choice over whether to torture an individual who has knowledge of a bomb that's about to go off and kill many civilians.  The Israeli government used to cite this one all the time.  But here's a problem:  despite abundant research into the subject, to my (admittedly limited) knowledge no one's ever actually found a case in which the torture of a suspect has produced information that prevented an imminent attack.

And here's another:  in the real world, how do you define "imminent" and how threatening does it have to be before torture is warranted?  Without a satisfactory answer, what ends up happening (and did indeed happen in Israel, Pakistan, and other nations) is that the authorities began to torture more and more of their prisoners, on the theory that eventually they'd find someone who knew something useful.  It's the proverbial "slippery slope" in action.

And on the subject of "slippery slopes," here's another, sobering incident from the annals of terrorism and counter-terrorism.  In the early to mid-1990s, the Egyptian government became concerned about the Islamic militant groups (many of whom would later link up with Al Qaeda) that were detonating bombs, trying to assassinate officials, and otherwise committing bloodthirsty acts.  So they set out to infiltrate the groups, especially the ones based in Sudan.  And one of the tactics they came up with was to secretly abduct the young teenage sons of various officials in the terrorist organizations, take them to a secure location, and have older men drug and rape them while the intelligence services recorded it all.  These recordings, combined with the trauma and intense cultural shame of being a victim of homosexual rape, were used to leverage these boys into spying against their own parents.  And you know what?  The tactic was in some cases effective, and allowed the Egyptian counterintelligence authorities to break up several plots and make numerous arrests.  But even the most ardent "ends justify the means" utilitarian would have a hard time justifying the rape of innocent children.

I don't pretend to know the answers to all of these questions.  Indeed, one could easily construct a hypothetical scenario in which me, you, and most of the people on this board would personally torture an individual if we thought it would save the life of a loved one.  But I suppose that's the purpose of laws and governments; to provide necessary restraints on these understandable human desires.

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#18 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 03:15 AM

I'm baffled as to why torture would even be a dim proposition in a world where we have a pretty impressive array of drugs that can loosen the tongue and inhibitions. I'm sure we're light-years beyond sodium pentathol now.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#19 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 08:02 PM

One cannot maintain a moral highground if one sinks to a level of the enemy

torture is wrong, always and under any condition

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#20 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 08 March 2003 - 08:08 PM

My question is then. What is torture?

Are we  saying using drugs or sensory deparvation techinques to get intell out of a hostile person is torture?
The moral high ground is a nice thing to stand on but a realist will tell you that it rarely happens.  

When did it become our job to stand here and let something like 9/11 happen again and again  so we could kep our morals.

Morals are fine things but if they get in the way of survival they are worthless.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Terrorism, Torture

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users