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Al Gore's speech to MoveOn

Al Gore MoveOn Anti-Bush Politics-American

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#21 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 02:56 PM

Drew, on May 28 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

The inaccuracies (okay, we'll call them 'lies') of his speech have been covered elsewhere. (For example, his comments about Red Cross figures are pure fantasy.) Get out your Google and you'll find 'em.

My point is that our politicians--present and former--are treating the war like just another opportunity for soundbites without thinking of the effect their words might have. In an earlier era we'd call comments like gore's and Kennedy's "seditious."

And what I was saying in the comment you quotes is that defending Gore's actions today on the grounds that he played nice in 2000 is . . . well, it's not any sort of defense at all.

But if it's all you've got . . . go ahead. I'll ignore it.  :cool:
So the REepublicans who said things of the very same nature while FDR was in office..they were just good ole' boys defending the country??

So I was wondering...in your vision of America...where does dissent end and sedition begin??
I feel my country may be in an unjust was and kids may be dying for no good reason...but I'll just keep my mouth shut to preserve the common good...goood gfor the guys who aren't over there fighting that is...good for the corporations that are making mad profits....

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Besides, I remember that there was an independent count done of the florida ballots and it was determined that Bush would have won regardless.

Yeah...he would have won anyways...so who cares how us black folk voted....

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My point is that our politicians--present and former--are treating the war like just another opportunity for soundbites without thinking of the effect their words might have


Here we are in total agreement...I feel politician on both sides are doing the exact same thing...honest political disagreement has become a war of unending tv sound bites..


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#22 Drew

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:03 PM

gaius claudius, on May 28 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

So I was wondering...in your vision of America...where does dissent end and sedition begin??
Care to begin a thread? It's a good discussion.  :cool:

For me it's often one of those "know it when you see it" things. Kennedy's comments were shocking. It's one thing to say "what went on in Abu Ghraib was wrong, and we will punish it" and it's quite another to say "Saddam's torture chambers reopened under U.S. management."

And if you can't see the difference, then I'm not sure a discussion is worthwhile.
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#23 Delvo

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:12 PM

MuseZack, on May 28 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

the illegally cast after election day military ballots that Gore didn't contest, the illegal disenfranchisement of the African American vote through the "felon purge," the abormally large number of disqualified ballots from minority majority districts, the "bourgeois riot" (look up the term) by out of state Republican operatives aimed at physically intimidating election workers into stopping the Florida recount, and the 5-4 Supreme Court decision to stop the recount that included two justices who should have recused themselves for having relatives working on the Bush-Cheney campaign, there's enough to conclude that the electoral vote actually went for Gore as well.

If anything, Gore was remarkably gracious in letting Bush assume office without a fight
That is the most delusional, reality-detached string of revisionism I've ever seen here. What color are the fairies' wings in La-La Land?

#24 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:13 PM

Drew, on May 28 2004, 04:01 PM, said:

And if you can't see the difference, then I'm not sure a discussion is worthwhile.
discussion is always wothwhile :)


as for the diffference...if the statement is actually factual..i.e...torture..at the prison...done by personnel..under US supervision...I can live with it.

I actually believe we can actually turn a light on the dark corners without this country falling apart..or giving in to our enemies...

A lot of republican members of congress argued both in the 60's that any type of civil rights discussion wasd playing  into the hands of communists ...and that black people were being whipped up by "communist agitators" ..they were wrong...and we persevered..just as I beleive we'll persevere through this discussion..despite what the politicians think on both sides...


gc      :devil:

Edited by gaius claudius, 28 May 2004 - 03:19 PM.

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#25 gaius claudius

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:15 PM

Delvo, on May 28 2004, 04:10 PM, said:

MuseZack, on May 28 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

the illegally cast after election day military ballots that Gore didn't contest, the illegal disenfranchisement of the African American vote through the "felon purge," the abormally large number of disqualified ballots from minority majority districts, the "bourgeois riot" (look up the term) by out of state Republican operatives aimed at physically intimidating election workers into stopping the Florida recount, and the 5-4 Supreme Court decision to stop the recount that included two justices who should have recused themselves for having relatives working on the Bush-Cheney campaign, there's enough to conclude that the electoral vote actually went for Gore as well.

If anything, Gore was remarkably gracious in letting Bush assume office without a fight
That is the most delusional, reality-detached string of revisionism I've ever seen here. What color are the fairies' wings in La-La Land?
This isn't an attack...just a question...

could you point out which facts you think aren't factual...with links for proof..




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#26 Godeskian

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:16 PM

Delvo, on May 28 2004, 09:10 PM, said:

MuseZack, on May 28 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

the illegally cast after election day military ballots that Gore didn't contest, the illegal disenfranchisement of the African American vote through the "felon purge," the abormally large number of disqualified ballots from minority majority districts, the "bourgeois riot" (look up the term) by out of state Republican operatives aimed at physically intimidating election workers into stopping the Florida recount, and the 5-4 Supreme Court decision to stop the recount that included two justices who should have recused themselves for having relatives working on the Bush-Cheney campaign, there's enough to conclude that the electoral vote actually went for Gore as well.

If anything, Gore was remarkably gracious in letting Bush assume office without a fight
That is the most delusional, reality-detached string of revisionism I've ever seen here. What color are the fairies' wings in La-La Land?
I note you don't actually refute anything he says.

Is that because you won't or can't?

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#27 MuseZack

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:25 PM

Delvo, on May 28 2004, 08:10 PM, said:

MuseZack, on May 28 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

the illegally cast after election day military ballots that Gore didn't contest, the illegal disenfranchisement of the African American vote through the "felon purge," the abormally large number of disqualified ballots from minority majority districts, the "bourgeois riot" (look up the term) by out of state Republican operatives aimed at physically intimidating election workers into stopping the Florida recount, and the 5-4 Supreme Court decision to stop the recount that included two justices who should have recused themselves for having relatives working on the Bush-Cheney campaign, there's enough to conclude that the electoral vote actually went for Gore as well.

If anything, Gore was remarkably gracious in letting Bush assume office without a fight
That is the most delusional, reality-detached string of revisionism I've ever seen here. What color are the fairies' wings in La-La Land?
Nice stab at a refutation.

Here's Joe Conason on the "bourgeois riot," one of the more shameful episodes in the recount mess.

http://www.nyobserve...ory.asp?ID=3517

That lawless incident was the "bourgeois riot" of Nov. 22, incited on the airwaves by Rush Limbaugh and a Cuban-American radio station, and then praised on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal the next day by Paul Gigot (who also regularly appears on the very civilized and genteel PBS Newshour). According to Mr. Gigot, the whiteriotthat stopped the manual counting of votes in Miami-Dade was sparked by a command to "shut it down" from RepresentativeJohn Sweeney of upstate New York. In other words, an elected Republican Congressman—who took an oath to uphold the Constitution and laws of the United States—unashamedly incited a mob.

What Mr. Gigot omitted from his eyewitness account of that event showed up in the pages of The New York Times, which reported that "several people were trampled, punched or kicked" during a fracas outside the office of the county supervisor of elections that continued until sheriff’s deputies restored order. Republican thugs also assaulted the Democratic county chairman because they mistakenly believed that he had absconded with a single ballot.

Neither George W. Bush, the self-styled President-elect, nor any of his handlers and advisers, had a calming word to say in the wake of the disgrace done in their campaign’s name. And why would they call for calm, when it was they and their allies on Capitol Hill who recruited, transported, fed, housed and directed the invasion of those "idealistic, enthusiastic young Republicans"? Subsequent newspaper reports have established that many members of the roving gang were in fact on the payroll of Republican members of Congress, including at least five dispatched from the office of House Majority Whip Tom DeLay.

Instead of urging their disorderly minions to behave, Mr. Bush and his running mate Dick Cheney reportedly joked about the Dade disruption over the speaker phone at a Thanksgiving dinner in a local hotel, where their G.O.P. posse was celebrating its victory.


A lot of us were willing to let this crap slide after 9/11 for the sake of national unity, but let's not pretend that it didn't happen at all.

Edited by MuseZack, 28 May 2004 - 03:30 PM.

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#28 emsparks

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:31 PM

I have been sitting here trying to come up with a quip. The problem is this isn’t funny. Neither Bush, nor Kerry, knows how to run a war, let alone the kind of war we have in Iraq. AND no kiddies this isn’t another Vietnam, not even close. From a psychological point of view a 21st century war, requiring a rulebook that hasn’t been written yet.

For the first time in history one Army bypassed and cutoff, enormous numbers of enemy troops, only to turn them lose in rear areas of the attacking formation, one hell of an invitation for an insurgency if there was ever one. So that’s what we got an insurgency. To compound things the government and the press, but mainly the press, placed super human expectations on the Military on how fast life could be returned to normal in Iraq.

Let me tell you people something; you don’t make almost a million men job less, and then expect to have the economy and civil authority up and running the very next day after the liberation. Not even God could come up with a plan to do that.

I listen to this debate, Bush this, and Kerry that, and it’s all BS. One’s the consummate businessman, and the other is the consummate politician, and not a statesmen between them.

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#29 Bad Wolf

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:34 PM

I think that this whole discussion wouldn't have gotten sidetracked into a rehashing of the merits of Bush's victory if someone hadn't first decided to attack Gore, NOT on the merits of anything, but by calling him a "sore loser".  This knee jerk political polarization works both ways you know.  Ye Gods, it's getting so that the poli discussions at the Firefly board are less polarized than here and that's not exactly a compliment.
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#30 ArmourMe

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 04:09 PM

*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP*  

AM GIVES ZACK A STANDING OVATION.

Thank you, Zack!

#31 Drew

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 06:40 PM

Quote

A lot of us were willing to let this crap slide after 9/11 for the sake of national unity, but let's not pretend that it didn't happen at all.

Sure, as long as we don't pretend that you're quoting an unbiased source.  :cool:

I mean, the guy tips his hand the moment he utters the phrase "self-styled President elect." Not much different than the right-wingers continuing to call Clinton the "philanderer in chief" for years after Monica, is it?

Let it go, people. Let it go. The 2000 election is not what this thread is about.
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#32 Delvo

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 06:58 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on May 28 2004, 02:32 PM, said:

I think that this whole discussion wouldn't have gotten sidetracked into a rehashing of the merits of Bush's victory if someone hadn't first decided to attack Gore, NOT on the merits of anything, but by calling him a "sore loser".
Ya, when he wasn't even talking about his lost election himself.

#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 07:14 PM

Yes one line at the very end.  The meat of the speach was Iraq.  Has anyone on this thread even bothered to discuss *that* issue?  Why no.  immediately attention was turned to the last election and it wasn't Zack who did it either.  At least at the Firefly board when this speech got brought up people actually focused on the merits of Gore's calling for certain resignations and his opinion about how specific Kerry should get about his own plan.  Oh well, if beating a long dead horse is your preferred method of hyberbolization (heh, did I just make up a word?) then knock yourself out.
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#34 HubcapDave

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 07:34 PM

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Lil:The meat of the speach was Iraq.  Has anyone on this thread even bothered to discuss *that* issue?  Why no.

Why yes. Look at my first line:

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Me:Isn't this the same Al Gore who who publically warned the president that he would have to do something about Saddam sooner or later?

No one has yet to comment on that. Rather, Zack took issue with my opinion that Gore is acting lkie a "sore loser".

#35 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 07:54 PM

I've thought quite a bit about this speech. While I disagree with quite a bit of what Al Gore said (and his main crime is assuming facts not in ivedence), but I'm actually glad he made this speech.

One of the ills affecting public discourse is politicians holding back. The common crime of Bush and Kerry is saying essentially nothing over the past several months. It's good to see somebody who's saying exactly what's on his mind. I just didn't think it would be Al Gore....
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#36 MuseZack

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 08:29 PM

HubcapDave, on May 29 2004, 12:32 AM, said:

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Lil:The meat of the speach was Iraq.  Has anyone on this thread even bothered to discuss *that* issue?  Why no.

Why yes. Look at my first line:

Quote

Me:Isn't this the same Al Gore who who publically warned the president that he would have to do something about Saddam sooner or later?

No one has yet to comment on that.
Okay, I'll bite.  Quite a lot of people, myself included, were in favor of aggressive action against Saddam Hussein while thinking that the way this Administration decided to go about it-- with too few troops and too few allies, before letting the inspection process run its course, and too soon after invading Afghanistan with the diversion of too many resources (spies, soldiers with Middle Eastern expertise, etc.) from the central front of the war against terrorism to a place that was peripheral at best.  Simply put, many of us were ambivalent or against this war not because we thought taking out Saddam was a bad idea but because we were convinced by past actions and the nature of the people involved that this Administration would screw it up.  And guess what?  They have.
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#37 Bad Wolf

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 08:33 PM

What he said.  Moreover I don't appreciate having the Administration be less than candid about the *reasons* for going in.
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#38 Delvo

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 09:43 PM

MuseZack, on May 28 2004, 01:29 PM, said:

Drew, on May 28 2004, 07:20 PM, said:

That was then. This is now. And now he's acting like Howard Dean's slightly imbalanced cousin.
Really?  How?  Because-- gasp! -- he raised his voice?
That could actually be part of it. He's had such a reputation for not showing emotion for so long that when he does start acting mad like he has every time he's appeared lately, it seems more drastic than it would from somebody else. And since he was never like this before and he's always like it now, the starkness and suddenness of the transformation looks like either he's flipped his lid or he'd attempting an image makeover and acting like something other than himself. Even if it's the latter, then his act needs work, because it's like he doesn't know how to imitate normal human emotiveness without making it seem like the former.

Another way context could add to the impression, in a way that's not entirely fair to him or to any one particular speech, is that so many Democrats have been going so far with their rhetoric for at least a year or two that now, with such a vast number of examples of taking it way overboard, that now they all just blur together into a cumulative, amalgamated caricature or mockery of themselves; even when one of them isn't doing it at this moment, (s)he can remind people of previous episodes when (s)he did. Listeners on the other side who've grown tired of it can end up just tending to roll their eyes with each new apparent addition to the list and thinking "There they go again"... even if that particular example isn't as bad as the others.

#39 HubcapDave

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 12:24 PM

Nice bite, Zack!

I get your points, I understand them. I don't necessarily agree with them. Particularly the last sentiment. To me, it would seem that the US would have "screwed it up" when our troops were summarily kicked out of Iraq and Iraq was governed by an Islamic theocracy.

Now, I'll grant things have gone less than swimmingly lately, but as is chronicled in another thread there are good things happening as well. Yet, the media rarely, if ever, mentions it. Furthermore, Mr. Gore ignores any of the good stuff to harp on the negative with such vitriolic rhetoric that I cannot his histrionics as being sincerely outraged so much as a strictly political calculation.

#40 Delvo

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 12:51 PM

HubcapDave, on May 29 2004, 11:22 AM, said:

Mr. Gore ignores any of the good stuff to harp on the negative with such vitriolic rhetoric that I cannot his histrionics as being sincerely outraged so much as a strictly political calculation.
He goes far beyond only paying attention to bad stuff; much of what he said and implied in the speech is simply false. But that's normal from him, nothing noteworthy. The interesting thing here is that when the current version of Gore or Howard Dean says that kind of stuff, it's more likely to strike people as crazy, whereas the original Gore or John Kerry can say precisely the same stuff and be more likely to get away with it, even though the concepts being expressed are still equally quacky either way.



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