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Breaking News--Paul Johnson killed by captors

Paul Johnson Obituaries American Hostage Beheaded

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#121 Shalamar

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 05:24 PM

I was more thinking the Capitol building, the White House ( which is where the Penn. plane may have been going ) that sort of political.
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#122 Delvo

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 05:39 PM

They originally planned on hitting 10 or more targets, not the 4 that they actually attempted, on both coasts and between.

#123 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 05:40 PM

Dev F, on Jun 19 2004, 01:38 PM, said:

If war is the only way to right a monstrous injustice, then war is just. If war is the only way to bring relief to those in unendurable torment, then war is charitable.
I'll just save myself some trouble and say "What Dev said."  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#124 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 05:41 PM

Shalamar, on Jun 20 2004, 05:06 PM, said:

But careing and working together does not mean we have to give up ourselves, and seek to mollify, mollycoddle and kowtow to every little group on the planet either.  We are not necessarily superior - but we are one of the richest countries on the planet, one of the most technologically advanced and one of the largest... Honestly we are the last 'super power' left but that doesn't mean we don't need to work and play well with outhers...and they need to equally work and play well with us as well.
That will never happen as long as groups like the ACLU are around. And no matter what position the Government takes, on any issue, there are going to be those who feel slighted, or that the Government is wrong, ect.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice idea I just don't see it happening...ever.

Quote

Going after terrorists should be a group effort from every country, and those that harbor and support them should, justly in my mind, be regarded as pariah nations... I have no problem with cutting such entities off from the UN, and any international aid.  Yes it will hurt the ordinary, innocent citizens ( no I'm not talking nukes and bio weapons ) but simplely cutting them off from the community of nations and stringent and ENFORCED sanctions against them - trade, food purchases etc.

Yes people will say that it's wrong to hurt the innocent with these since they don't control the actions of their government - but they can change their government.  Yes it will be hard and  people will die- it's hard going up against those who have arms when you don't - but it can be done. And maybe a few changes in government will let those other pariah nations know that harboring and abetting terrorists isn't a game worth playing.

In theory this sounds good. But the very hardship you mention for the ordinary citizen in the "pariah" nation is what will make them the next terrorist regime. They will, more then likely, committ terrorist acts against those they feel are oppressing them...Namely the US, rather then their government.
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#125 GiGi

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 05:50 PM

I agree, sanctions never work.  It didn't work for Iraq, it only made the people feel punished for something they have no control over.  It just make them feel angry and victimized.  Angry and victimized people are easily convinced to be terrorists.
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#126 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 08:05 PM

GiGi, on Jun 20 2004, 05:32 PM, said:

You don't stop violence by creating more violence, you stop it by stopping the cycle by not being violent.
Odd the Carthagians would like to hear how that is suppose to work.  How is this suppose to stop a folks who look for weakness and when they see it another skyscarper comes down and a few thousand folks have to die.

Sorry in a perfect wortk that is true. Hugging the suicide bomber might make him feel that it would be wrong to blow himself up along with the old woman and children but the 7.62mm  NATO passing through the back of the neck where the spine meets the skull is safer.  Saying  the terrorists we forgive you might just work mind if I keep hunting them down becasue theya re not going to buy it for a second.

Basically you either shrug your shoulders and say "What can you do?" or you hunt them down and kill them. Trying to appeal to their better nature is a failure. Heinlein said it best "Never appeal to a man's better nature he might not have one. Appeal to his interests and he will at least consider your offer."

My method can invoike anger but after they see what the anger gets them and the fact it makes go after more of them and do to them what we promise to do less will be willing to jump up.
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#127 GiGi

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 08:22 PM

I still disagree, you are interpreting my words to say that we should do nothing.  That is not what I am saying.

Stopping the violence is important.  Going after those who are at the top level is important.  Acting out in the same way never, never works.  It only gives them the excuse to up the ante.  And we will not win that type of battle without becoming even worse than them, for in order to win we have to up the ante even further.

Trust me on this, I have had battles with insane people, I have never, never won by acting as insane as they do.  I could only gain ground by bringing in the authorities.  ANd in this case we need the help of other nations.  Other pressures than it just being us against them.
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#128 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 08:28 PM

^  I think you put your finger on the pulse by talking about needing the help of other nations.
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#129 Chipper

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 09:02 PM

Quote

Chipper, do you think that we all are entitled to happiness? In the US, the quote is "the pursuit of happiness" -- but, you see, that suggests the transience of the state of happiness. You can pursue it as much as you like, but you may never catch it. And *no one* is "happy in all the ways they could be," not really -- though, these days, a lot of Americans think that if they're not as "happy" as they should be, it's time for years of therapy.

Of course we are.  Everyone is entitled to happiness.  And even if happiness is transient, I believe that there *is* a point of fulfillment.  Isn't that why we always say that money doesn't buy happiness?  Becuase this fulfillment is a personal one that changes for each individual.  Why did I say my family isn't happy?  Because they have been oppressed, members have been torn from them (my grandfather still does not know the location of his father's body, and probably never will), they are poor...I'm LUCKY to be here away from all that.  I feel guilty for having all this and going back every year or so (I'm leaving in a week) and having all these things they do not.

That feeling for me is probably multiplied if I go to the Middle East.  Those people have NOTHING compared to most people in the US.  And it's a damn shame and maybe that's why they hate us so much.  Because we have so much more than them and in their eyes, we have done nothing to show that a) we can (or want) to help them for simply humanitarian reasons  -- many people have, but I would say that the gov't has not, not purely, and it is what they associate us al with or b) we are better than them.  They probably look down on us.

The terrorists have fed on this, that is their power.  Until that power is broken...there is no victory.  Anywhere.  Because they are everywhere and people susceptible to their teachings are everywhere.  Even here.

And that is why I think that there isn't a way to stop them totally, no matter what social change may take place.
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#130 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 08:32 AM

Norville, on Jun 20 2004, 12:32 PM, said:

LotS said:

They are animals, and just like other animals they can be killed.

LotS said:

And, NO, they are not human. Anyone who would do what these animals did to Nick Berg and Paul Johnson are *not* human.

They're human, Mr. Propaganda. All humans *are* animals, literally speaking, and can become monsters. I know of other animals who behave better than some humans, so I hesitate to use "animals" in this dehumanizing sense, see? Besides, by distancing yourself from them, LotS, you pretend that you're not an animal (in the literal sense) yourself, though your posts have certainly indicated that you're willing to descend to the same sort of behavior that you protest.

LMAO! Mr. Propaganda? Don't think I've ever been called that before...It certainly is a first.

As for your point that all humans are animals...your correct. Techincally speaking we *are* animals, literally speaking of course. As for these terrorists not being Human...that depends on your defination of Human. And that is another thread entirely. Suffice it to say that I doubt our definations of human are the same.

IMO, anyone who would do what these monsters did is *not* human. They( meaning the terrorists) are a plague that needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth, period.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#131 Godeskian

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 09:04 AM

There is of course one scientifically accurate definition of human, and we are all it. Even the terrorists.

#132 Drew

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 10:23 AM

Chipper, on Jun 20 2004, 09:00 PM, said:

Quote

Chipper, do you think that we all are entitled to happiness? In the US, the quote is "the pursuit of happiness" -- but, you see, that suggests the transience of the state of happiness. . . .

Of course we are.  Everyone is entitled to happiness.
Do you really mean "entitled" as in "have an inalienable right to"? Logically that would mean that unhappy people would have the right to seek legal means to securing happiness on the grounds that their rights were being refused. I'm not sure we want to make something as subjective and personal as happiness an "entitlement."

Please tell me you erred.

Edited by Drew, 21 June 2004 - 10:44 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#133 Chipper

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 12:37 PM

^ Drew, I think you know what I mean.  Perhaps the use of "entitled" was a mistake but I would never say that people could seek legal means for happiness (though somehow I doubt that hasn't been tried :p ).

OR should I say:

Everyone is free to pursue happiness to the fullest extent they wish?


I don't know how to word it to make you happy now. :p ;)
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

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#134 Delvo

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 12:41 PM

It's not a matter of making someone happy; it's a matter of using words and phrases for the meanings that they actually mean. "Pursuit of" isn't just decoration.

#135 Drew

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 12:56 PM

Delvo, on Jun 21 2004, 12:39 PM, said:

It's not a matter of making someone happy; it's a matter of using words and phrases for the meanings that they actually mean. "Pursuit of" isn't just decoration.
Right. I think we have a sort of "entitlement" mindset at work in this country, and so I wanted clarification when I saw that word being used.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#136 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 01:15 PM

I'm pretty sure Chipper was talking about the inalianable right to the pursuit of happiness.  I assume no one has any objections to using the founder's words?
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#137 Drew

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 01:16 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 21 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure Chipper was talking about the inalianable right to the pursuit of happiness.  I assume no one has any objections to using the founder's words?
But those words weren't used . . . hence my request for clarification.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#138 Chipper

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 02:55 PM

Well I hope I clarified then with Lil's help. ;)

Happy?

:p
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#139 Drew

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 03:13 PM

Chipper, on Jun 21 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

Happy?
No, but I'm pursuing it.  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#140 Chipper

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 06:48 PM

Ooo....sneaky little devil.


BTW, I finished B5 a while ago...and I must I was woefully underwhelmed by the end of it.   You guys hyped it all so much. ;) :p  But I have no idea when I can write a review on it (maybe I"ll write one in Bulgaria this summer; I'm leaving next week till like August) to gripe all I want!
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy



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