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Kerry Voters . . . tell me why?

Election 2004 John Kerry

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#21 GiGi

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 09:17 PM

I'll keep my answer short.... What Zack said!
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#22 Rhea

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 11:07 PM

GiGi, on Jun 21 2004, 06:15 PM, said:

I'll keep my answer short.... What Zack said!
Me too. Thanks, Zack. You always take the time to pull in the links  I'm mostly too lazy to cite. :cool:
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#23 Delvo

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:23 AM

It took me a while, but I wanted to do this to make sure it could be done (and demonstrate what it would look like, since most attempts just revert to Bushbashing anyway). Of course, the catch is that I'm not likely going to vote for Kerry (although it's possible) and I don't represent his usual kind of voter. For example, I don't count his anti-military and arguably anti-American (at least on foreign policy issues) attitude, his foreign policy quackery, his Vietnam record as a confessed war criminal, or his habit of rabidly lashing out at people in both the political and personal arenas with a temper-control problem and a condescending attitude, to be good things, and I'm not falling for the meme that he'd be any better (or any good) for our international reputation/image, and I have no hesitation about acknowledging and denouncing his lies about taxes and about his own position on them. But I have found two things I can say are good about him so I can say these things without merely saying he's better than someone else I dislike, and on one of them I'm pretty sure I'm even in agreement with most liberal Democrats:

1. He's mostly consistent about being for free trade internationally and against protectionist tarrifs. It's actually fairly bold for a Democrat to go against unions like that. I'm not convinced it's good for the country, but a politician should either pick a side or admit that he's not sure, not try to sound convinced on both sides in different ways at different times. This is a mistake Kerry does not make. One could see his "Benedict Arnold companies" thing as an exception to this rule, since it's a complaint about a simple corollary of free trade and openness with other countries, but there are various ways it could be seen as non-contradictory as well.

2. He will stand for separation of church and state, both when it comes to getting Christianity's tentacles out of government where they already are, and when it comes to blocking the theocrat-wannabes' attempts to encroach more than they already have.

#24 Jid

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 02:48 PM

Quote

his Vietnam record as a confessed war criminal,

This is news to me (and I thought I'd been following things fairly close).

Link?
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#25 Drew

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:10 PM

Jid, on Jun 22 2004, 02:46 PM, said:

Quote

his Vietnam record as a confessed war criminal,

This is news to me (and I thought I'd been following things fairly close).

Link?
I suspect Delvo is referring to Kerry's post-Vietnam testimony before the Senate; which makes it pretty ironic that he's running on his Vietnam record now if we are to believe that his military unit did the things he said they did back then.
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#26 prolog

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:22 PM

^ Well, Ariel Sharon became the leader of Israel, and what he's done is well-documented.

#27 Jid

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:26 PM

Actually, I found his testimony before congress: http://ice.he.net/~f...topic=Testimony

It didn't contain any admission he himself committed war crimes that I could read.
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#28 Delvo

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 08:54 PM

Either that's not complete or this stuff came from apearances he made other than that particular testimony. This isn't quite all, but here's a couple of samples I could find quickly...

Quote

"...yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.
He also said he knew about more stuff which he was complicit in by choosing not to report or do anything else about...

Quote

He said those included rapes, mutilations, torture and random shootings of civilians.

Edited by Delvo, 22 June 2004 - 08:56 PM.


#29 GiGi

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 11:16 PM

Delvo, on Jun 22 2004, 06:52 PM, said:

Either that's not complete or this stuff came from apearances he made other than that particular testimony. This isn't quite all, but here's a couple of samples I could find quickly...

Quote

"...yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.
He also said he knew about more stuff which he was complicit in by choosing not to report or do anything else about...

Quote

He said those included rapes, mutilations, torture and random shootings of civilians.
The exact same thing could be said about what my neighbor did in Vietnam, had no choice about doing really.  But instead he has several medals, medals he says he is not proud of what he did to earn them.  So really what is your point?
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#30 Drew

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 08:26 AM

GiGi, on Jun 22 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

So really what is your point?
Well, my point was that I think it's odd that he runs on his Vietnam record now, given what he's said about it in the past.
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#31 gaius claudius

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 08:33 AM

Drew, on Jun 23 2004, 09:24 AM, said:

GiGi, on Jun 22 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

So really what is your point?
Well, my point was that I think it's odd that he runs on his Vietnam record now, given what he's said about it in the past.
I don't understand why some people find this odd...seems pretty simple to me ..


1. He chose to serve in Vietnam and gave a valiant effort in doing so..(according to his war record)...so he knows the actual cost of war..

2. He saw and took part in a lot of awful things when he was over there, and chose to speak about them (to whatever extent) when he got out


So what?


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#32 Drew

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 09:13 AM

I guess it's that this year he's wearing the badge of "good soldier," whereas not too long ago he was proudly wearing the badge of "bad soldier."
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#33 GiGi

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 11:01 AM

Having served instead of running away is more than can be said about a lot of young men dutring that war (not that I blame them for running)  He wasn't proud of what he did, but he did serve.  The Vietnam war is a complex thing, very complex, that is why the Vets of that war are so messed up.

It cannot be reduced to sound bites and make sense.  Trust me on this.
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#34 JadziaDax

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 11:25 AM

I'm voting for him because I think he's better for the country. Basically what Zach said.

While this is pick your poisen.....think of it this way...

Bush is going to kill the country
Kerry will only put it to sleep

(granted that's what was said locally about the last election......but it's still fitting today, ony Kerry will make us yawn).

And for those of you who need a laugh..... This website ought to be amusing....I mean, even the name of it has to get a laugh out of some on you ;).
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#35 G1223

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 11:48 AM

Bush is killing the country?   Odd the jobless rate has been lower than in years yes 12,000,000 people out of work is not a good thing but out of nearly 300,000,000  it's not the end of the world. far from it. No place has ever had 100% employment. and never will.

Manpower as of last week was saying that at least 30% more employers are looking to add staff.  Interst rates are only now begining to look like they might MIGHT just start to be on the raise.  Bush ended in four years a recession that usually takes eight to ten years to get around. How he gave tax cuts. The extra money  had the effect of starting the recovery that much sooner.  Yes we have a deficet but that is becasue to prevent the reocvery from stopping when the terrorists attacked he kept them in place while fighting a war.

Of course he could have just done like Kerry and promise to end those cuts and put it towards all the social programs Kerry has talked about and in the amounts Kerry has talked about.

Yes Kerry will put us to sleep just like the boy did with Ole Yeller. with exactly the same resualt. except that the UN will pat him on the back and say it was for the best while they get their cut from the scam for oil program.
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#36 JadziaDax

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 11:58 AM

When it comes to employment, Bush can kiss my a**. My mother's been out of a job since 9/11, I haven't had a job since a year after 9/11. My mom's unemployment is related to it, mine's because people are still in this "Oh, the terrorists are going to kill me if I go outside my house, no one buy anything" mentality. I've spent two months trying to get a summer job, no one is hiring. If I can't get a job, I can't affoard tuition, I can't go finish my degree.

I don't care if Bush wants to admit it or not, the job economy sucks. It hasn't been this bad since WW2. As far as I'm concerned, Bush CAUSED the recession, because he told us we were in a recession and we believed him.
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#37 G1223

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 12:20 PM

Yes Bush before being elected he casue the whole tech bubble to pop? What next that he tied up two tornados tails toghere and rode them to Washington?  WW2 we had  near full employment. With folks sometimes working two jobs.  My brother has a job he got becasue his employer got enough of a tax break to open a second store.

So Bush has been OK for me and my family. Kerry is either vauge or promising the moon to every group he talks with such as ending the tax cuts and put them to education when talking to teachers and to defendinng union jobs to the unions and so on and so on.

So to me Kerry is pandering to every special interest group and saying what he will do. Bush is doing what he knows should work but that it will take time.
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#38 gaius claudius

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 01:08 PM

G1223, on Jun 23 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

So Bush has been OK for me and my family. Kerry is either vauge or promising the moon to every group he talks with such as ending the tax cuts and put them to education when talking to teachers and to defendinng union jobs to the unions and so on and so on.
If mr. Bush and his policies have been good for you and yours, then definitely give his administration your vote (no disrespect or sarcasm intended)..

  Its just unfortuntely...I can't say the same...

  then again if last election is anything to go by...its 50/50 that they'll even let me vote..or count it anyways...

    at least i'm not in Fl., i probably wouldn't even bother




gc    :devil:

Edited by gaius claudius, 23 June 2004 - 01:09 PM.

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#39 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:52 PM

Quote

Drew,

Your question, along with the limits you attempt to impose, makes a whole lot of assumptions and disregards the actual state of politics in America. Choosing the "the person best suited to lead this country domestically and internationally" is not an option in the American political system. Americans get two bad choices and often find themselves in a position of attempting to select the lesser of two evils. The question for many of us is not "who is best suited" but "who will do the least harm."

While I would say that neither man is best suited to run the country, in an attempt to play by your rules, I will say that I intend to vote for Kerry in the hope that he will do less harm than the only other choice available to me. Four years has shown the extent of the harm Bush has done and still intends to do.

I agree with the above - totally, completely and unequivocally. I don't like John Kerry - I think he is the worst choice the Democrats could have put forward - I believe he is, however so much better than the current POTUS - that I have no choice but to vote my conscience and do everything in my power to get out the vote for Kerry in order to save our civilization from destruction.
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