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What "is" Fundamentalist Christianity

Religion Christianity Fundamentalism

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:24 PM

gaius claudius, on Jun 24 2004, 05:09 PM, said:

People can agree to disagree without beating hte crap out of each other....mostly
Exactly what I was hoping for.  What I'd like to see is if we can't get some kind of consensus (within the community of course) from people in the know about this stuff about the questions I asked.  Because I think then there are further questions that can be explored and discussed in what I hope will be an equally civil manner.  :)
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#22 MuseZack

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:27 PM

The Amakelites and the Midianites might quarrel with the morality espoused in the Old Testament, had they not all been murdered or sold into slavery and concubuinage on the alleged orders of God.
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:33 PM

Zack could you please provide a link or two?  Thanks.:)

Lil

p.s.  Can I again ask everyone to please, regardless of the touchiness of this kind of topic, to really try hard not to get inflammatory?
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#24 MuseZack

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:36 PM

Re: the Amakelites--

"Now go, attack the Amakelites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.  Do not spare them: put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camel and donkeys." - 1 Sam 15:3

Re: the Midianites:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Num 31:17

I'm not trying to be inflammatory here.  I just have a very difficult time reconciling the notion of a just and merciful God with some sections from the Old Testament, and I'm curious as to how others are able to do so.

Edited by MuseZack, 24 June 2004 - 07:41 PM.

"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#25 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:42 PM

I'd like to thank Pickles for setting forth her beliefs so clearly.  It's interesting that her answers about what she believes are pretty much EXACTLY what I was taught about the Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible in Comparative Religion lo these many years ago in High School.  So a big Shout Out to Fr Grady, SJ!

To further play  :devil: 's advocate and clarify the "Was it okay for God to order genocide in the OT?" question...

Basically, since God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc etc... it was right for Him to do that then, because that was what needed to happen then (if you subscribe to the literal interpretationof the Bible, which we don't).  That was then, this is now.  Keep reading until you get to the Good News part and you'll be fine.

Now, according to modern Catholic doctrine, however...

A)  The Bible is "a religious interpretation of the history of the people of Israel" (I had to memorize that definition word for word by heart Freshman year) and therefore is not literally true in every instance.  This takes care of all those nagging inconsistancies in Genesis for example.  And as far as the genocide thing, we can safely say God didn't order the Jews to do that.  They just thought He did.  SKATE! and...

B)  Even if He did, the NT signalled a new covenant between humanity and God which brought forth a more sophisticated relationship between us and Him, so that God no longer needs to be the OT God and can now be the NT God.  It's kind of like how your parents don't have to ride you the same way when you're an adult as they did when you were a kid.  It's not that God has changed, though, since God is constant.  It's that we've advanced to a stage where we're mature enough (hopefully) to engage with God in a new paradigm.

Anyway, that's what they taught us at S.I., AMDG and all that.  Your Catholicism may vary.  Don't forget the maxim:  If you ask three Jesuit educated people a question about theology, you'll get nine opinions.

Now, me, I don't have the problem of justifying this stuff since I'm a Neo Zoroastrianist Wayist kinda guy.  But it's fun to pull out the old Theology bag of tricks from time to time.

Edited by Robert Hewitt Wolfe, 24 June 2004 - 07:51 PM.

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#26 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 07:54 PM

WOOT!  Er...okay fangirl moment quashed.  ;)

So let me ask this question of everyone who feels they have an answer.  The way it was taught to me was that Christ's arrival heralded a change in God from a God who could indeed be unforgiving and cruel to a kinder God.  So that the Old Testament is not really reflective of the God that Christians (who by definition worship Christ) worship.  What do you guys think about that?
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#27 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:03 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 25 2004, 12:52 AM, said:

The way it was taught to me was that Christ's arrival heralded a change in God from a God who could indeed be unforgiving and cruel to a kinder God.
Nope.  YHWH doesn't change.  YHWH is perfect.  YHWH is constant.  You can't get more Perfect than Perfect, thus it's the same God.  YHWH is what YHWH is.

WE'VE changed.  We either did it by ourselves, or Jesus changed us, or a combination of both, but it's a change in us or a change in the covenant wrought by Jesus that has changed the RELATIONSHIP between us and Him.  So God acts how God needs to act to fulfill God's perfection and lucky for us, God doesn't need to act that way anymore.*
  
I know it's a hair-split, but isn't that what conversations like this are all about?






*So long as we behave, of course and keep up our end of the Covenant.  But better not shout, better not cry, 'cause when things get too wicked then the End Times will arrive and then the Wrath stuff will be a'comin' again!

Edited by Robert Hewitt Wolfe, 24 June 2004 - 08:03 PM.

"There are monsters, there are angels...
There's a peacefulness and a rage inside us all."
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Voice of the Beehive


#28 DWF

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:06 PM

Pickles, on Jun 24 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

Quote

The Bible should also be read from cover to cover and not taken out of context, which happens alot with fundamentalists.

This is a very broad generalization that neither applies to most fundamentalists, nor does it happen "alot". Yes, some do take things out of context. So do some Mormon's, Catholics, Presbyterians, Muslims, etc., etc., etc.

This has happened wth every non Catholic fundamental Christian I've ever had contact with. I too had a Catholic education, a 12 year one at that, not only do they all want to change the Bible to suit their own version of what it has to say. So for me, it's been more than alot, it's been about every time out. :yin-yang:
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#29 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:08 PM

Now I'm admittedly drawing on *long ago* memories of Bible Study (both formal and informal) but I really remember that Christ's arrival was a sign that nothing like the flood that led to Noah's Arc, for example, would ever be ordered by God again.  Maybe I'm misremembering but given the fact that I *do* remember it despite my subsequent disenfranchisement from the whole organized religion thing I'm kinda thinking I'm not misremembering it... :unsure:

Your hairsplit is interesting.  If we've changed (and I believe we have) *and* the Bible is to be read in its context and not by today's moral standards (as I read kimmer's post to suggest) then where do the two intersect?
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#30 DWF

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:12 PM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on Jun 24 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 25 2004, 12:52 AM, said:

The way it was taught to me was that Christ's arrival heralded a change in God from a God who could indeed be unforgiving and cruel to a kinder God.
Nope.  YHWH doesn't change.  YHWH is perfect.  YHWH is constant.  You can't get more Perfect than Perfect, thus it's the same God.  YHWH is what YHWH is.

WE'VE changed.  We either did it by ourselves, or Jesus changed us, or a combination of both, but it's a change in us or a change in the covenant wrought by Jesus that has changed the RELATIONSHIP between us and Him.  So God acts how God needs to act to fulfill God's perfection and lucky for us, God doesn't need to act that way anymore.*
  
I know it's a hair-split, but isn't that what conversations like this are all about?






*So long as we behave, of course and keep up our end of the Covenant.  But better not shout, better not cry, 'cause when things get too wicked then the End Times will arrive and then the Wrath stuff will be a'comin' again!
I have to agree with Robert, the only thing Jesus did, other than dying for our sins and opening Heaven, is to create a new Covenant with God, and hence new Commandents too.

1. To love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
2. To love your nieghbor as yourself.

:cool:

Edited by DWF, 24 June 2004 - 08:27 PM.

The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#31 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:15 PM

I could swear that the First Commandment orders people to forsake all gods for *GOD* so I don't see how this is different from your number one.  Can you give me a specific cite for your number two (as it's been years since I cracked a Bible).  Thanks.  :)
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#32 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:20 PM

DWF, on Jun 25 2004, 01:10 AM, said:

1. To love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
2. To love your neighbor as yourself.


Citation for Lil (note that this discussion is prompted by an evil lawyer):

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Basically, if you're going to take anything out of context in the Bible, take this. This the the big message of the NT and is, theologically speaking, MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WHOLE BOOK.  So anything you do, anything, must measure up to the standards of these two commandments, otherwise JUST DON'T FREAKING DO IT!  

Can you really smite someone who you love?

Now excuse me while I go have my bacon cheeseburger while clean shaven and wearing clothing of more than one type of fabric.

Edited by Robert Hewitt Wolfe, 24 June 2004 - 08:24 PM.

"There are monsters, there are angels...
There's a peacefulness and a rage inside us all."
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Voice of the Beehive


#33 Delvo

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:23 PM

The history of the word

#34 DWF

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:24 PM

Quote

Now excuse me while I go have my bacon cheeseburger while clean shaven and wearing clothing of more than one type of fabric.

LOL!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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#35 Kevin Street

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:27 PM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on Jun 24 2004, 06:18 PM, said:

Basically, if you're going to take anything out of context in the Bible, take this. This the the big message of the NT and is, theologically speaking, MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WHOLE BOOK.  So anything you do, anything, must measure up to the standards of these two commandments, otherwise JUST DON'T FREAKING DO IT!  

Can you really smite someone who you love?
Amen. :)
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#36 Jid

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:29 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 24 2004, 07:06 PM, said:

Now I'm admittedly drawing on *long ago* memories of Bible Study (both formal and informal) but I really remember that Christ's arrival was a sign that nothing like the flood that led to Noah's Arc, for example, would ever be ordered by God again.  Maybe I'm misremembering but given the fact that I *do* remember it despite my subsequent disenfranchisement from the whole organized religion thing I'm kinda thinking I'm not misremembering it... :unsure:
You're quite right, on a theological level, in this respect.

Noah's ark, 40 years in the wilderness, yadda yadda yadda...  were all ways for God to more or less smack sense back into the israelites.  (You'd think they'd remember who brought 'em out of Egypt, but nooooo, they start worshipping Baal for the umpteenth time.  Here comes the sacking of Jerusalem, yet again, till they finally hear God yelling "Who's yer deity?" )

The idea you expressed is simply this:  with the coming of Christ bringing a reconciling of humankind and God, there's no more need for mass action corrections, especially just against the chosen people, since technically, we're all the chosen people in the eyes of Christianity.  Rather than rely on calamity to bring the people back to God, the people are supposed to look upon the example of a carpenter from Nazareth, and find the path to God.

I think that's what you were after, at least.
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#37 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:31 PM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on Jun 24 2004, 06:18 PM, said:

Citation for Lil (note that this discussion is prompted by an evil lawyer):
*choking with laughter*   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

*trying to get a hold of herself*

Okay okay okay....

Quote

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

Ya and it was ALREADY the First Commandment which was sorta my point to DWF.  This is nothing *new*.


Quote

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Basically, if you're going to take anything out of context in the Bible, take this. This the the big message of the NT and is, theologically speaking, MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WHOLE BOOK.  So anything you do, anything, must measure up to the standards of these two commandments, otherwise JUST DON'T FREAKING DO IT! 

So, now for my next follow up question.  How does the idea of biblical perfection reconcile with the idea of internal inconsistencies within the Bible?

Quote

Can you really smite someone who you love?

I think we both know the answer to that...:p~

Quote

Now excuse me while I go have my bacon cheeseburger while clean shaven and wearing clothing of more than one type of fabric.

How many rules does that break?

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 24 June 2004 - 08:32 PM.

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#38 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:33 PM

Jid, on Jun 24 2004, 06:27 PM, said:

The idea you expressed is simply this:  with the coming of Christ bringing a reconciling of humankind and God, there's no more need for mass action corrections, especially just against the chosen people, since technically, we're all the chosen people in the eyes of Christianity.  Rather than rely on calamity to bring the people back to God, the people are supposed to look upon the example of a carpenter from Nazareth, and find the path to God.

I think that's what you were after, at least.
Thank you Jid.  Yes, that's precisely what I was getting at.  :)
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#39 DWF

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:34 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 24 2004, 09:13 PM, said:

I could swear that the First Commandment orders people to forsake all gods for *GOD* so I don't see how this is different from your number one.  Can you give me a specific cite for your number two (as it's been years since I cracked a Bible).  Thanks.  :)
That's the first commandant of the OT, or old covenant, Jesus came and gave us new ones. New Commandants with 1/5 the fat of the old ones. :D
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#40 Drew

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:38 PM

Just home from work . . . nice thread.  :cool:

I don't think I have anything to add at the moment . . . good reading, though.  :cool:
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