Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

What "is" Fundamentalist Christianity

Religion Christianity Fundamentalism

  • Please log in to reply
85 replies to this topic

#41 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:41 PM

^  The fact that you say that makes me glad.  :)  I hope at some point that you'll add your thoughts.
Posted Image

#42 tennyson

tennyson
  • Islander
  • 6,173 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:47 PM

If I'm remembering correctly that would be three or  four OT laws RHW would be breaking, no pigs or pig products, having a full never shaven beard(hence why hasidic and other similar orthodox Jews have beards), not mixing fabrics and I think there was something about cheese but I could be wrong.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#43 DWF

DWF

    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

  • Islander
  • 48,287 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:49 PM

Quote

Ya and it was ALREADY the First Commandment which was sorta my point to DWF. This is nothing *new*.

No, you're right it's about 2000 years old. :p

But the wording and meaning is different from the first commandment of the OT. Which only states that, there's only ONE God and you'll have no false more false Gods. It says nothing about loving that God. ;)
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#44 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:52 PM

^  I believe that in the Bible the words worship and love are interchangeable and *if* memory serves me correctly (and it may not) the word worship is used in the original first amendment.

This brings me back to my issue about the centuries spent "interpreting" the Bible.

Thanks tennyson for the run down on the rules Robert is breaking.

Lil
Posted Image

#45 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,638 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:55 PM

Speaking as someone who believes there's only one Testament, even in Judaism, no one is supposed to believe that the evolution of the Law stopped with the OT.  Judaism added to the Tanach (Bible) the Talmud, centuries of interpretation and rethinking of the Law.  It seems to me that neither part of the Judeo-Christian tradition believes that the Old Testament was the final word on how man should enact God's will.  It may be truth, but it's not the whole truth.  

Of course I'm not a Jewish fundamentalist, and I believe the authors of the OT were doing their best to understand what God wanted of his people based on their history.  So calamities were attributed to men having defied God's will and behaviors that had led to good things or healthy things for the children of Israel were seen to have been in accordance with God's will.  But it was written as a partisan Scripture, so killing other people who threatened the physical survival of the Children of Israel got attributed to God, as Robert says.

I think the authors were very sincere in believing that they had seen the will of God revealed in the history of their people.  I'm not sure even they believed the words they used to describe that Revelation were God's rather than theirs.  But, hey, none of us was there, so as kimmer says, it all comes down to faith.

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#46 Anastashia

Anastashia

    Tyrant Matriarch and Pegan Too!

  • Islander
  • 11,777 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 08:58 PM

While I agree with RHW that the Matt 22:35-40 is the center of how humanity is to fulfill their side of the Covenant I think we also need to give equal importance to God's side as expressed in John 3:16 "Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him may not die but may have eternal life" NAB.

I also remember being taught that the expression of the commandments in the Matthew cite is not a supercession of the ten commandments of the OT but rather a summarization of the most important requirements of them. Perhaps the best analogy would be the spirit as opposed to the letter of the law.

Ani
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

Posted Image


#47 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:02 PM

So let me ask this, if it's all a matter of faith, what exactly does the concept inerrancy mean?  Faith means belief.  Belief is subjective is it not?  

Lil
Posted Image

#48 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:04 PM

Nothing to add but this:

:welldone: to everyone! It's so nice to have that "oh, sh*t" feeling in my gut proven TOTALLY WRONG by a thread! You all rock.

And, Mr. Wolfe--- cheeseburger? How many kinds of fabric?

Your insanity is a beacon to us all. Shine on, you crazy diamond!

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#49 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:07 PM

Anastashia, on Jun 24 2004, 06:56 PM, said:

Perhaps the best analogy would be the spirit as opposed to the letter of the law.

Ani
Hi Ani :)

What happens if someone reasonably believes there is a conflict between the spirit and the letter of the law and how does the concept of inerrancy play into all of this?

Lil
Posted Image

#50 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:08 PM

the'Hawk, on Jun 24 2004, 07:02 PM, said:

:welldone: to everyone! It's so nice to have that "oh, sh*t" feeling in my gut proven TOTALLY WRONG by a thread! You all rock.
{{{{{{{{{{{ExIslers}}}}}}}}}}}}}  That means you too Sir 'Hawk.   :love:
Posted Image

#51 DWF

DWF

    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

  • Islander
  • 48,287 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:10 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 24 2004, 09:50 PM, said:

^  I believe that in the Bible the words worship and love are interchangeable and *if* memory serves me correctly (and it may not) the word worship is used in the original first amendment.
http://wyllie.lib.vi...0&division=div1

The OT Commandments. :cool:
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#52 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:19 PM

Thanks for the link.

This is how I learned the First Commandment (minus the numbers cited in your link):

Quote

    1: And God spoke all these words, saying,
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I note both that the word "love" appears in this *and* that it says to compare it to the King James version (which is the one I learned).  

Lil
Posted Image

#53 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,316 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:42 PM

I want to interject this thought.  It is a little sensitive, but I want to do it anyway.  

Some years ago, we fought a world war.  A few years later, we fought a second one.  Both of these wars involved mass slaughter, stepping over the national interests of lots of countries too small to defend their own interests in the war.  Both of these wars created some of the international ideologies we live with today - first with the League of Nations, next with the United Nations.  These ideas grow and evolve, as we do- and they might not have been born at all had we not experienced first hand the vulnerabilites inherent in overrampant irresponsible sovereignty without any international accountability.  The balance has not been properly struck yet, but the fact is, we have taken baby steps.  

If someone were to write this from God's POV, how would they write it?   I know none of us can arrogate God's POV, but just stepping out of ourselves for a moment, and imagining it... and knowing that God, by definition, could have prevented all of these wars if He wanted to... couldn't it be said that He authorized these wars, decreed their outcome, so that we could be today where we are?

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#54 Rhys

Rhys

    ... a learning experience.

  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:42 PM

tennyson, on Jun 24 2004, 09:45 PM, said:

I think there was something about cheese but I could be wrong.
It's mixing meat & dairy - which I think was originally something like not serving the meat of the kid in the mother's milk, but they generalized to completely avoiding mixing meat & dairy to be safe.


The problem with translation is that denotation, cultural context, and subtle nuances in meaning change over time, let alone translating to different languages.  At the same time, I accept the Bible as inerrant.  It's all a matter of faith.  There might be an appropriate combination of quotes from Book and Garak that cover it. :)

Rhys
"It's easy to bond over hating something together - The Internet is total proof of that." Cyd/Codex, The Guild

Change the world!  No one can do everything, but everyone can do something.

#55 DWF

DWF

    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

  • Islander
  • 48,287 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:02 PM

Handmaiden07, on Jun 24 2004, 10:40 PM, said:

If someone were to write this from God's POV, how would they write it?   I know none of us can arrogate God's POV, but just stepping out of ourselves for a moment, and imagining it... and knowing that God, by definition, could have prevented all of these wars if He wanted to... couldn't it be said that He authorized these wars, decreed their outcome, so that we could be today where we are?

HM07
Well, I can't speak for God but, since from the beginning of time those wars, were in fact going to happen exactly when they did, I don't think that God decreed them happening. Time, space and humanity I'm sure looks ALOT different from God's POV. But just knowing the outcome and knowing that, God could alter the outcome, kind of takes away from the idea of free will. And of course free will looks ALOT different when you know everything will end, regardless of whether or not something is done to prevent something bad from happening.

Doess that make any sense? :wacko:
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#56 Wally

Wally

    CEO of Kansas

  • Islander
  • 228 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:02 PM

Regarding the 10 commandmants and the New Testament, a fundamentalist understanding generally aknowledges that only one of the 10 commandments is changed or voided, and that is the keeping of the Sabbath. The two greatest commands have already been pointed out in this thread (I believe they can both be found in the Old Testament as well) but I would like to add Matthew 22:40. If it's already here and I missed it, sorry. It says something like "All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commands." The spirit/letter thing.

If someone believed there was conflict between the spirit and the letter of the law, I'm not really sure. The Pharisees followed the old law without the spirit, so I don't think the  spirit and letter are mutually exclusive, but they aren't always joined, either. The new covenant is a "more perfect" understanding. (ie we're no longer worried about our neighbor being unclean, we worry about their spiritual and physical well-being.)

Inerrancy and the subjectivity of belief-  The fundamentalist belief is that the Bible is inerrant, that any internal inconsistancies are due either to transcription errors (very few, though some fundamentalists deny these, even) or an imperfect interpretation of what the scripture says. It is because of the latter reason that various fundamentalist groups can disagree with each other. (ie literalists versus those who believe metaphors are employed etc.) The other group does not interpret the scripture correctly. At least one group goes as far to say that scriptures are not interpreted, they simply are.

Quick plug here for anyone interested. It was part of my homework in NT survey. A brief outline of a Fundamentalist Christian answer to "What is the Gospel?" http://v4.livegate.n...html#ntoutline1
"I want to live. I want to experience the universe, and I want to eat pie."  - Urgo

#57 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:06 PM

DWF, on Jun 24 2004, 11:00 PM, said:

Well, I can't speak for God but....
Well, that rules out my "DWF Is The Second Coming" theory.... :lol:

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#58 Rhys

Rhys

    ... a learning experience.

  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:06 PM

Wally, on Jun 24 2004, 11:00 PM, said:

a fundamentalist understanding generally aknowledges that only one of the 10 commandments is changed or voided, and that is the keeping of the Sabbath.
I don't think that it's so much that it was changed or voided as that the interpretation imposed by the religious leaders in Jesus' time was not in line with the original intent.

Rhys
"It's easy to bond over hating something together - The Internet is total proof of that." Cyd/Codex, The Guild

Change the world!  No one can do everything, but everyone can do something.

#59 Wally

Wally

    CEO of Kansas

  • Islander
  • 228 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:15 PM

Except that by the Christians, the Sabbath wasn't "remembered or kept holy" in any way at all. It no longer applied. Jesus repeated essentially every commandment but that one (in the Sermon on the Mount, I think.) The early church took the habit of meeting on Sunday- the day after the Sabbath- the day of the week of the resurrection, but they often met more frequently than that, so even Sunday wasn't Holy any more than any other day. (Whee, run on sentence anyone?)
"I want to live. I want to experience the universe, and I want to eat pie."  - Urgo

#60 DWF

DWF

    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

  • Islander
  • 48,287 posts

Posted 24 June 2004 - 10:20 PM

the'Hawk, on Jun 24 2004, 11:04 PM, said:

DWF, on Jun 24 2004, 11:00 PM, said:

Well, I can't speak for God but....
Well, that rules out my "DWF Is The Second Coming" theory.... :lol:

:cool:
Darn, does Dr. Who's second coming make a difference? :lol:  :lol:  :angel:
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Religion, Christianity, Fundamentalism

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users