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Michael Moore: Your Thoughts

Media Michael Moore Film Opinion

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#1 Guest-2112st-Guest

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:17 AM

I'm trying to understand people's feelings on Michael Moore. I'll probably see this film on the July 4th weekend. Still, I'd like to hear from those who like and hate him and find out why they feel the way they do. You can also point me to links that support your POV, if you like.

Thanks.

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#2 Godeskian

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:19 AM

I think he's an overbearing twit with far too much rethoric, but his first book made me think, and he makes me laugh.

Especially the bit on what happened in Florida, was enlightnening reading especially after i was able to confirm or corroborate certain facts that had eluded me untill then.

but mostly he makes me laugh.

#3 gaius claudius

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:22 AM

I've actually sworn to myself not to say anything about Michael Moore...until I've seen the movie..I think valid critiscm of his work as a filmmaker or on his political views or statement of facts is fine...but there are certain comments that bug the hell out of me..

1. He's fat...that's a critique of something?  


2. He's making money off his movies...that's called capitalism.


3.Outright name calling---this ain't a schoolyard..we're all supposed to be adults.



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#4 G1223

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:29 AM

When i think of Micheal Moore I keep thinking of the embarassing moment when I stepped onto a cowpie in a fieldwith a pair of nice shoes.

The man has too often played fast and loose with the facts if not made them up.

He does the Franken Shuffle sometimes when caught. (He's an  Entertainer/He's reporting the truth)
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#5 Rov Judicata

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:29 AM

It's an obscenity that a man who made millions through hard work and detirmination now spreads a message that it's impossible to climb the class ladder. I find it galling that he benefited from our mobile society, but now insists it doesn't exist.
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#6 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:36 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 25 2004, 09:27 AM, said:

It's an obscenity that a man who made millions through hard work and detirmination now spreads a message that it's impossible to climb the class ladder. I find it galling that he benefited from our mobile society, but now insists it doesn't exist.
I find it appalling that he's constantly criticizing capitalism, and yet is benefitting nicely from it.

But mostly I find his dishonestly loathesome. The Hitchens piece I linked to earlier this week demonstrates everything that's wrong with this movie--and with Moore himself.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#7 gaius claudius

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:42 AM

Drew, on Jun 25 2004, 10:34 AM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 25 2004, 09:27 AM, said:

It's an obscenity that a man who made millions through hard work and detirmination now spreads a message that it's impossible to climb the class ladder. I find it galling that he benefited from our mobile society, but now insists it doesn't exist.
I find it appalling that he's constantly criticizing capitalism, and yet is benefitting nicely from it.

But mostly I find his dishonestly loathesome. The Hitchens piece I linked to earlier this week demonstrates everything that's wrong with this movie--and with Moore himself.
I thinks there's a difference between criticizing capitalism..or some of teh problems that are inherent in  the system...I generally feel he's doing the latter..although I'd have too look at  it on a case by case basis...

And don't get me started on Hitchens..who flips back and forther between liberal/conservative depending on if he has a personal grudge against who he's writing about as opposed to the facts..


Quote

It's an obscenity that a man who made millions through hard work and detirmination now spreads a message that it's impossible to climb the class ladder. I find it galling that he benefited from our mobile society, but now insists it doesn't exist.


I don't think he's ever said the ladder doesn't exist anymore...just that its easier for some to climb it then others...which I wholly agree with...

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#8 FlatlandDan

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:11 AM

I take everything he says with a large grain of salt.   Part of his films I find amazingly interesting, and other parts are so egotistical I could puke.  I'll watch all of his films so I know what some people are considering to be the gospal truth in the world.

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#9 Jid

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:25 AM

The golden age of Michael Moore was "TV Nation", iirc, which was a lovely fare, long before he decided to start grinding his axe mostly to only one side.

Can't comment on the man himself, since I know very little about him, but I will say I can admire someone who has a lot of passion about a subject, even if I don't always agree with their position/tactics.
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#10 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:37 AM

Jid, on Jun 25 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

Can't comment on the man himself, since I know very little about him, but I will say I can admire someone who has a lot of passion about a subject, even if I don't always agree with their position/tactics.
Careful with that. Passion itself is never worth admiring. Clearly Osama bin Laden was passionate about murdering Americans.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#11 Jid

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:43 AM

Funny, I wouldn't call murder a "subject" in my definition.  (Or a "profession" for that matter)

I would however, assign both terms to politics, which seems to be what Moore is most interested in.
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#12 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:48 AM

Maybe he is a fake, but I've seen his TV show, and I wonder if people has valid proof that he is a fake or they believe it because SOMEONE told you he was a fake. People get paid to do that, after all.  :)

Pain in the arse? Perhaps. But at least Michael Moore might be trying to do something positive about this country.

Just my thoughts.

#13 Rov Judicata

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:53 AM

Natasha, on Jun 25 2004, 08:46 AM, said:

Maybe he is a fake, but I've seen his TV show, and I wonder if people has valid proof that he is a fake or they believe it because SOMEONE told you he was a fake. People get paid to do that, after all.  :)
Define 'fake'. Do you mean fake in that he's a liar, or fake in the sense that he doesn't believe what he says?

There's ample evidence of the former, but I-- for one-- don't believe the latter to be true.

Quote

I don't think he's ever said the ladder doesn't exist anymore...just that its easier for some to climb it then others...which I wholly agree with...

I'll have to dig out quotes, but he's said on numerous occasions that the bogeyman of the 'rich' (they have secret meetings and everything, I guess) faked the whole recession we just came out of. He's also said that the odds of somebody hitting it big are 'one in a million' as I recall. Again, though, I'll have to find the cites for that...
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#14 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:54 AM

Drew, on Jun 25 2004, 03:35 PM, said:

Jid, on Jun 25 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

Can't comment on the man himself, since I know very little about him, but I will say I can admire someone who has a lot of passion about a subject, even if I don't always agree with their position/tactics.
Careful with that. Passion itself is never worth admiring. Clearly Osama bin Laden was passionate about murdering Americans.
Jid said he could admire someone with a lot of passion for a subject, not that he would.

#15 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 10:55 AM

Personally, I wish the American left would pick a better spokesman than him.  It seems that the age of intelligent, eloquent speakers has come and gone, because if Moore and Limbaugh are the popular voice of the left and the right...

#16 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:07 AM

Jid, on Jun 25 2004, 10:41 AM, said:

Funny, I wouldn't call murder a "subject" in my definition.  (Or a "profession" for that matter)
Whatever. My point still stands. Don't admire anyone just because he has "passion."

(Maybe it's the editor in me.)

(And he didn't say "could," he said "can.")
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#17 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:09 AM

Natasha, on Jun 25 2004, 10:46 AM, said:

But at least Michael Moore might be trying to do something positive about this country.
Michael Moore may be genetically incapable of doing anything positive.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#18 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:26 AM

Drew, on Jun 25 2004, 04:05 PM, said:

Whatever. My point still stands. Don't admire anyone just because he has "passion."

(Maybe it's the editor in me.)

(And he didn't say "could," he said "can.")
Actually, Drew, Jid was very careful with his statements:

I can admire someone...

is very different from

"I admire someone..."

Having the ability to do something does not mean that the ability will be used each time the conditions for its use are sufficient.  Presumably Jid is not actually a monster and does not admire bin Laden.

Passion itself is never worth admiring.

Never?  Not once in the history of the world?

#19 gaius claudius

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:32 AM

Drew, on Jun 25 2004, 12:07 PM, said:

Natasha, on Jun 25 2004, 10:46 AM, said:

But at least Michael Moore might be trying to do something positive about this country.
Michael Moore may be genetically incapable of doing anything positive.
  So none ofthe work he's done has ever had any positive effect??
   Now that demagoguery :cool:



Quote

Quote

Personally, I wish the American left would pick a better spokesman than him. It seems that the age of intelligent, eloquent speakers has come and gone, because if Moore and Limbaugh are the popular voice of the left and the right


I wouldn't ccnsider either of them spokesman for either side...they are both extremist in their viewpoints....


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#20 Dev F

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:44 AM

Speaking as a liberal Democrat, I think Michael Moore is a more dangerous threat to the ideals of the left than anything the right can throw at us. Almost single-handedly, he's transforming mainstream liberalism into something truly ugly -- smug, hateful, irrational, and morally bankrupt -- and it scares the hell out of me.

A lot of liberals love him because he says the things that few other people are willing to say, on a scale that few other people can say it, and because he uses his brilliant rhetorical abilities to make people care passionately about what he's saying. But it's a deal with the devil these liberals are making; to embrace Moore they have to turn a blind eye to all the ways in which his arguments are dishonest and mean-spirited and illogical.

All too often, when someone points out a flaw in Moore's rhetoric, his supporters' response is to stop caring about whatever it was that the filmmaker got wrong. "So what if Charlton Heston didn't really visit Flint, Michigan, right after the murder of Kayla Rowland? Moore's main point about the uncompassionate nature of the NRA still stands." Well, dammit, we should care if our spokesmen use dishonest means to support the things we believe in. We should care that it diminishes us and the things we value, and inures us to dishonesty and uncritical thinking.



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