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Michael Moore: Your Thoughts

Media Michael Moore Film Opinion

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#21 GiGi

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:51 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 25 2004, 07:27 AM, said:

It's an obscenity that a man who made millions through hard work and detirmination now spreads a message that it's impossible to climb the class ladder. I find it galling that he benefited from our mobile society, but now insists it doesn't exist.
It exists for him alright.  He gave a talk here for the UCSC Arts and Lectures program.  The decided to add an extra show because the first one was sold out.  Boy did he ream them on the price.  It was outragous and they lost a lot of money on that show when they should be making money!

As for how I feel about him, I kind of ignore him.  I may go see the movie to see what I think of it.  I really don't embrace his message overall, but I think once and a while he has a point.  The selling of Michael Moore has gotten quite silly right now.  I don't think it will last, but I could be wrong.

*Edit to say...I agree with what Dev F said above*

Edited by GiGi, 25 June 2004 - 11:55 AM.

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#22 MuseZack

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 12:15 PM

prolog, on Jun 25 2004, 03:53 PM, said:

Personally, I wish the American left would pick a better spokesman than him.  It seems that the age of intelligent, eloquent speakers has come and gone, because if Moore and Limbaugh are the popular voice of the left and the right...
What, did the American left have a meeting and appoint Michael Moore as its spokesman?  And if it did, why wasn't I told about it? :angry:


Like most American lefties, I feel conflicted about Moore.  On the one hand, he's an insufferable self-promotor, he sometimes plays fast and loose with the facts, and is the master of the cheap shot (does lingering on Paul Wolfowitz spitting on his comb and putting it in his mouth before running it through his hair really contribute to our understanding of the man?).  

On the other hand, playing nice while the other side engages in scorched earth tactics (see the other documentary coming out this week, The Hunting of the President, for that story) has left the Democrats shut completely out of power, and Moore at least knows how to throw punches that actually connect with their targets.  So perhaps ugly times call for ugly tactics.  


Plus, the mere mention of his name drives right-wingers into frothing rage.  And that's always fun. :devil:
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#23 HubcapDave

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 12:17 PM

I don't like Michael Moore. Not one bit. I think the man is a self-serving egotist who is not entirly in touch with reality.

To reinforce what Rov said earlier, I listened to Glenn Beck's program the other day, and he told the story of a man who had built himself up from nothing to become both rich and famous and did it through hard work and determination. He was, of course, describing  Moore himself. Now this same self-made man has the temerity, the nerve, the unmitigated gall to turn around and say to the people of America "Don't bother to try to do anything. The deal is stacked against you by rich white men."(I am paraphrasing here, don't have the exact quote). To do that leads me to two conclusions:

1) His statement is a bald-faced lie and he is a hypocrite of the worst order.

2) He's telling the truth, which means he would have to BE one of those who have stacked the deal.

Neither one paints a rosy picture in my book.

To be honest, I have never seen a film he's made, but I do know enough about the man and the messages he tries to convey that I will never let that man financially benefit from me.

#24 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 01:20 PM

prolog, on Jun 25 2004, 11:24 AM, said:

Actually, Drew, Jid was very careful with his statements:

I can admire someone...

is very different from

"I admire someone..."
Well, at least you're admitting that he said "can" and not "could." :cool:

And I didn't say it was wrong, I said "be careful."

Quote

Passion itself is never worth admiring.

Never?  Not once in the history of the world?

Passion by itself? Passion divorced from its object? No. Don't admire anyone just because he's passionate.
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#25 tennyson

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 01:22 PM

I'm with Dev F on this. If you "win" with lies and innuendo then you haven't truly won anything.
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#26 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 01:22 PM

Dev F, on Jun 25 2004, 11:42 AM, said:

Speaking as a liberal Democrat, I think Michael Moore is a more dangerous threat to the ideals of the left than anything the right can throw at us. Almost single-handedly, he's transforming mainstream liberalism into something truly ugly -- smug, hateful, irrational, and morally bankrupt -- and it scares the hell out of me.

A lot of liberals love him because he says the things that few other people are willing to say, on a scale that few other people can say it, and because he uses his brilliant rhetorical abilities to make people care passionately about what he's saying. But it's a deal with the devil these liberals are making; to embrace Moore they have to turn a blind eye to all the ways in which his arguments are dishonest and mean-spirited and illogical.

All too often, when someone points out a flaw in Moore's rhetoric, his supporters' response is to stop caring about whatever it was that the filmmaker got wrong. "So what if Charlton Heston didn't really visit Flint, Michigan, right after the murder of Kayla Rowland? Moore's main point about the uncompassionate nature of the NRA still stands." Well, dammit, we should care if our spokesmen use dishonest means to support the things we believe in. We should care that it diminishes us and the things we value, and inures us to dishonesty and uncritical thinking.
Have I mentioned that Dev is another one of my favorite liberals? :cool:
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#27 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 02:32 PM

Quote

Well, at least you're admitting that he said "can" and not "could." :cool:

Of course I'm admitting that.  I misread it.

Quote

And I didn't say it was wrong, I said "be careful."

And what I'm saying is that saying "be careful" is rude and insulting when the example you give is of one of the most loathed figures since Adolf Hitler.

#28 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 02:39 PM

Quote

What, did the American left have a meeting and appoint Michael Moore as its spokesman?  And if it did, why wasn't I told about it? :angry:

No, but he's one of its most vocal members, and as such, he has a generally larger soapbox than almost anyone else.  I remember reading a news article a day or two ago (similar to this one, but ignore the obvious Republican slant), where leading Democrats were hailing Moore and his latest film.  If his film receives such a ringing endorsement, and from high-ranking Democratic politicians, he can be seen as something of a spokesman for them.  Combine that with his large soapbox (distributed worldwide), and you have a rather vocal spokesman.

Actually, I should have written "Democrats" rather than "the American left", because the two certainly aren't the same.  Sorry.

Quote

Plus, the mere mention of his name drives right-wingers into frothing rage.  And that's always fun. :devil:

Agreed.  His impact upon them is very similar to Rush Limbaugh's upon me; past threads on this board are proof enough of both. ;)

#29 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 02:43 PM

prolog, on Jun 25 2004, 02:30 PM, said:

And what I'm saying is that saying "be careful" is rude and insulting when the example you give is of one of the most loathed figures since Adolf Hitler.
Well, I "can," "could," and "would" think of others if you like. :cool:

You misunderstand me, but that's okay. I'm used to it around here.  :cool:
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#30 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 02:53 PM

Drew, on Jun 25 2004, 07:41 PM, said:

Well, I "can," "could," and "would" think of others if you like. :cool:

You misunderstand me, but that's okay. I'm used to it around here.  :cool:
Actually, I think I understand you pretty well, but the rules of civility prevent me from explaining how.

#31 Kevin Street

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 03:00 PM

Okay now, let's keep being civil then. :look:

I don't mind Michael Moore. Imo, his first documentary "Roger And Me" was quite a powerful piece of work, and I really enjoyed his "Awful Truth" TV show. "Canadian Bacon" was...um, not as good. ;) The movies vary, but they're always interesting.
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#32 prolog

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 03:16 PM

Quote

Okay now, let's keep being civil then. :look:

I was!  There was not a nasty word in my last post!

Quote

I don't mind Michael Moore. Imo, his first documentary "Roger And Me" was quite a powerful piece of work, and I really enjoyed his "Awful Truth" TV show. "Canadian Bacon" was...um, not as good. ;) The movies vary, but they're always interesting.

What?  Back on topic?  Okay. ;)  Anyhow, I thoroughly enjoyed "Roger and Me", minus the "killing the rabbit and skinning it" scene.  I'm not that squeamish, but my girlfriend is, so I had to watch that damned rabbit get skinned, and let my girlfriend know when she could open her eyes again.  

One of the most interesting things about "Bowling for Columbine", I thought, was that Moore didn't take the whole "guns cause crime" shtick.  If you'll watch it, you'll notice that he points out that Canada has a boatload of guns.  By some estimates (NFA, and also see "The Case of the Missing Canadian Gun Owners", Gary Mauser, 2001) there are around 7 million gun owners in Canada, or just under a quarter of the entire population.  Canada's gun deaths in 2001 were around 1.7 per 100,000 (seeStatistics Canada), whereas for the United States, the rate was 5.5 per 100,000 a year ealier (source - couldn't find the stats for 2001 in a cursory search).  I think what Moore was getting at was that high gun ownership itself was not a necessary condition for high crime rates; rather, that there was something else.  This point seems to have been lost in the ether as far as the movie goes, with far more sites attempting to debunk it rather than mulling over the interesting points it does present.

Thoughts?

(edit: removed a blank quote)

Edited by prolog, 25 June 2004 - 03:17 PM.


#33 MuseZack

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 03:31 PM

I thought "Roger and Me" was great and his TV series "TV Nation" was an intermittently funny precursor to The Daily Show, but I haven't seen anything he's done since then.  If I wanted to get lectured by someone I already agree with but is so obnoxious about it that I'm likely to disagree just out of spite, I'd go back to college.  I'm not really interested in having my prejudices pandered to-- I'd rather a documentary challenge me and shake up some of my beliefs.
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#34 Kosh

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 03:46 PM

tennyson, on Jun 25 2004, 01:20 PM, said:

I'm with Dev F on this. If you "win" with lies and innuendo then you haven't truly won anything.
Ditto!
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#35 Kevin Street

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 04:40 PM

MuseZack, on Jun 25 2004, 01:29 PM, said:

I thought "Roger and Me" was great and his TV series "TV Nation" was an intermittently funny precursor to The Daily Show, but I haven't seen anything he's done since then.  If I wanted to get lectured by someone I already agree with but is so obnoxious about it that I'm likely to disagree just out of spite, I'd go back to college.  I'm not really interested in having my prejudices pandered to-- I'd rather a documentary challenge me and shake up some of my beliefs.
I forgot about TV nation! Yeah, that one was pretty interesting, too. Good point about documentaries, though I'm not sure that Micheal Moore is making his films for people who already share his POV - imo, they're really intended to shock the apathetic mainstream into forming an opinion on issues that they rarely seem to care about. To those who are already informed, this can seem like crass overkill, but sometimes you need a bullhorn to reach people who aren't listening.

#36 Delvo

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 05:08 PM

Kevin Street, on Jun 25 2004, 03:38 PM, said:

sometimes you need a bullhorn to reach people who aren't listening.
That would excuse "loudness", but it wouldn't do a thing to justify the fact that his work is a constant stream of lies.

And that's the biggest thing that stands out to me about characters like him. Uninformed would be better than misinformed, and his kind of stuff is a cancer on the system. It's horrible how much of an effect the flurry of lies like his could actually have on the course of events in this country.

#37 tennyson

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 06:55 PM

I saw "Roger and Me" and I thought that worked and aside from a few stunts he pulled in it I thought it was fine but his later work just bothers me about how far the man is going to go and how much he is willing to distort the facts or lie to make a point. I'm not apathetic and I don't needed shocked by some stunt into doing anything. I don't want spectacle and melodrama, I want to understand what is happening in a rational manner so I can make informed choices. So I don't care for those who use the aforementioned tactics on either side.
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#38 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 06:58 PM

Delvo, on Jun 25 2004, 05:06 PM, said:

It's horrible how much of an effect the flurry of lies like his could actually have on the course of events in this country.
We could say "is having," as opposed to "could actually have," because big media is lapping it all up and spreading Moore's corrosive propaganda for him. They think that just by calling the film "controversial," they're taking a neutral stance.

Edited by Drew, 25 June 2004 - 07:51 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#39 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 07:04 PM

(shrug) like I said I've seen his TV show, and yes there are conversations that do appear to be either edited or missing perhaps. However, I do remember one case in point.....

There was a man who because of an inadequate health care system could not have a replacement pancreas operation due to faulty contracting (which he couldn't afford). And was going to die. Michael Moore *supposidly* (I leave it to your interpetation to believe) went to the healthcare office and invited all the officals to the man's funeral. He spent what seemed like hours trying to persuade these people to review the case and give this man a pancreas operation. When that didn't work, he staged a mock funeral in front of their building. A week afterwards the decision was overruled and the man, who was by the way a father of a four-year-old, was able to get his operation and live.

So yeah, I would like to believe that Michael Moore does do good things for people, and I'd like to believe that he does make a difference. Real? Fake? Either way it's the media of both sides who chooses to film what he does or doesn't do, so it's hard to know unless you've been there.

And just another thought-whenever I see a decent film or TV show or story that gets a bad review by a critic I usually think to myself, 'Okay, have you made a movie?' And when I read all the reviews (not just here) I'm thinking, 'Okay, are you trying to make a difference in a goverment against an injustice, perhaps for the better?' I know that I'm not.

I'm also not saying that Michael Moore is the real thing. For all I know, he might just be a attention-hungry biget. But I'd like to believe that he's trying to, again, make a difference, and for that at least I gotta respect him.  And one last thought-when people are interviewed by this guy sure they will lie about what happened. They'll lie to protect their own image. They'll lie because their superiors told them to. They'll lie to discredit Michael Moore as personal revenge. Usually people interviewed by Michael Moore will have any and every reason to lie about what happened, so maybe the world shouldn't regard what they say at face value. Politicians lie. Bill Clinton lied. Paul Martin lied. (sponcership scandal) And George Bush probably lied too. It's the truth. People lie!

These are my views and I really hope no one sees them as a flame (and ah...hopefully I won't be flamed back. Pretty please?) I've never posted in this forum at all but my opinion on this is just too great.  :love:

Edited by Natasha, 25 June 2004 - 07:07 PM.


#40 Jid

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 07:13 PM

I thought of one thing I know I like about Moore, because it's the same thing I like about several people whom I otherwise dislike:

For better or worse, regardless of their view - they may be clowns, but they get people talking.

And that, more than anything, *especially* with regards to politics, is what both Canada and America need both of, imo.  People need to be interested in how their country is governed, rather than maintaining a status quo or a party line.
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