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Kerry being sued for heresy

Election 2004 Sued John Kerry

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 12:41 PM

http://www.washtimes...11108-2541r.htm

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A Catholic lawyer has filed heresy charges against Sen. John Kerry with the Archdiocese of Boston, accusing the Democratic presidential candidate of bringing "most serious scandal to the American public" by receiving Holy Communion as a pro-choice Catholic.
    The 18-page document was sent to the archdiocese June 14, but released to the public only yesterday by Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles-based canon lawyer and an assistant judge with the Archdiocese of Los Angeles' tribunal, an ecclesiastical court.

Amazing. What year is this?
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#2 Jid

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 12:51 PM

I find this ridiculous in that "Only real life could be this funny" sort of way, but...

Some people just have no problem casting the first stone ;)
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#3 sierraleone

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 01:12 PM

gawd..... No, no! I wasn't saying god in vain, look, it had a W I swear!  :desperate:  :wacko:

Edited by sierraleone, 01 July 2004 - 01:13 PM.

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#4 Uncle Sid

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 01:54 PM

Let's be clear here.  It is the position of the Catholic Church that abortion is wrong.  If, as a politician, you support that, there's a good reason for you to be considered a heretic.  Of course, this is a ecclesiastical court case, so the Church hasn't actually made a decision in this case, and the archbishop and then the Pope could overturn it should they desire.

And I know the term "heresy" is what we associate with the Inquisition and burning people at the stake, but it's a real issue for a religion.  The abortion debate is about a real life and death issue, it's not about something as trite as swearing.  It's a very current issue, and in the US, there needs to be some definition.  The Church needs to decide just how far they feel they should go.  If someone like Kerry is out there and Catholic, people start thinking, gee he's a Catholic too, I guess supporting abortion is okay since the Church hasn't disavowed him.  While there needs to be some room to dissent a bit, you can't just ignore the big issues.

Personally, I think they should disavow politicians who support abortion and make it very clear that you can support abortions or you can be a Catholic in good standing but not both, which is actually the real situation right now anyhow.  I just don't know if they should condemn them as heretics and excommunicate them, however.  

Remember, politicians are looking to gain followers to get elected.  While their motivations are not religious, I think you'd be extremely naive to say that they don't also (try) and push moral and ethical viewpoints as well.  This is not just some guy on the street shooting off his mouth, it is a high visibility candidate with an aim to make as many political converts as he possibly can.   That's something that the Church has no choice but to take notice of if they want to remain consistent.  So, I think their course of action is clear, but again, I have no idea how far they should go.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 01 July 2004 - 01:59 PM.

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#5 sierraleone

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:02 PM

^ I know, I went overboard, I apologise,
The only difference between Kerry and a lot of other Catholics is he is a public figure and his views are public.
My mom is Catholic but pro-choice, legally seperate but not divorse and is w/ another man as a common-law, tell me how Catholic that is?
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 Rhys

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:08 PM

To be a little pedantic, I'm not sure "sued" is an appropriate term here - it's an ecclesiastical (church) issue we're talking about here, not a civil one...


However, I don't think the Church is necessarily out of line here - as an intensely public figure, if Kerry is going to put his Catholicism out front, and then go against some basic teachings of the Church, then the Church needs to make their stance on those issues clear.


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#7 Godeskian

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:26 PM

and what's so bad about being a heretic anyway?

Some of us prefer the right to be able to independantly make decisions as opposed to being beholden to centuries old dogma and doctrien.

Edited by Cyberhippie, 01 July 2004 - 02:26 PM.


#8 Uncle Sid

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:38 PM

^
Strange as it may seem, just about everyone chooses to follow those teachings who follows them and that is just as much a real choice as not following them.  

Besides, quite a few of the social and ethical teachings are actually fairly recent, since certain issues didn't exist in the past.  The birth control decision, for instance, came out in the 1960's.  

I just don't see the fascination with considering everything that has been around a long time to be out of date.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#9 Kevin Street

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:42 PM

Uncle Sid, on Jul 1 2004, 11:52 AM, said:

Let's be clear here.  It is the position of the Catholic Church that abortion is wrong.  If, as a politician, you support that, there's a good reason for you to be considered a heretic.
But there are other, equally sinful issues out there, like the death penalty. Imo, there are a whole lot of heretical Republicans walking around with no idea of their sins. And again imo, this lawyer and any officials in the Church who are supporting or gudiing him seem to be cherry picking their Commandments a bit.
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#10 Ogami

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:45 PM

Isn't God (capital G) the only one who could sue Kerry for heresy?

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#11 Banapis

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:46 PM

The thing that always seems to get overlooked is the fact that Kerry has repeatedly said that he *personally* believes abortion is wrong.  He says he's "pro-choice" in the sense that he does not believe he should use his public office in our government, a position of trust, to force/legislate the religious views of Catholics like himself onto non-Catholics (most Americans).

He's simply adhering to good old-fashioned, American as baseball and apple pie, separation of church and state.  A position the Catholic Church unequivocally and wholeheartedly endorsed when Kennedy ran for President and he had to assure the American people that he was not a "Papist" who would take orders from the Pope, force Catholicism on them, and otherwise act as an arm of the Catholic Church.  

Banapis

Edited by Banapis, 01 July 2004 - 03:08 PM.


#12 Corwin

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:13 PM

I would say "He's a witch, burn him!"... but it'd give witches a bad name... :)


Personally, I find this whole thing completely ludicrous.... I mean, seriously.. Catholic Court?
Let me guess.... "Catholic Court is now in session.. The Honorable and Holy Torquemada now presiding".

Get real, get a grip, and get a life.....  I may have a lot of problems with Kerry and his politics.. but I'm behind him 100% on this one....  Maybe he should pull a Cheney and tell the Church to "F--k Off".


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#13 Rhys

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:17 PM

^

So, the Church has no right to say what goes on in its name or under its auspices?

I don't have any respect for the way PETA does things, but if Kerry was saying "I'm a member of PETA, but I like to have a big beef BBQ ever weekend!" I wouldn't object to PETA kicking him out...

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#14 Uncle Sid

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:44 PM

Kevin Street, on Jul 1 2004, 03:40 PM, said:

But there are other, equally sinful issues out there, like the death penalty. Imo, there are a whole lot of heretical Republicans walking around with no idea of their sins. And again imo, this lawyer and any officials in the Church who are supporting or gudiing him seem to be cherry picking their Commandments a bit.
As for cherry picking commandments, that sounds just like the people who say that we couldn't possibly be liberating Iraq because there's many other places under dictatorships and so why we aren't attacking them too?  If the Church did decide to come to the conclusion that they had to deal with Kerry and all other like-acting politicians, it might be a tad bit counter-productive to find every possible item of contention and then launch a 25-front war.  No one says that being principled means you have to be stupid and prone to overextending yourself.  You fight one battle at a time.

As far as Kerry's "I believe it's wrong personally, but I don't have the right.. blah blah blah" I've never been see that as anything but a dodge.  That might make sense if Kerry actually only believed it was wrong simply because he got a letter from the Pope saying it was wrong and you have to believe this or else you go to hell.  Then he could say that he isn't going to be a conduit for Vatican policy in temporal affairs.  

However, if he *really* believes that it's wrong, how can he be running for a party that not only wants to keep abortion legal, but also wants to spend money on supporting and funding abortions, both here and internationally?  It's one thing to say "I can't stop you if you want to go to the doctor's office and have an abortion on your own time and with your own money" and another thing entirely to sign laws and orders to give taxpayer handouts to people wanting to get them.

I just don't see how you can distance yourself this way from a life and death matter.  I know many Catholics who hold the same viewpoint, and I find it chillingly indifferent.  I keep having it rammed down my throat that I shouldn't be indifferent to the environment, corporate corruption, the poor, women, minorities the disabled and everyone else, but then when faced with something like this the answer is that "It's not my problem".  That's just crap, and beyond the fact that Democrats support abortion, the very fact that they use this doublespeak to cover up the fact that they support abortions even though they don't want to say that they do disgusts me.  We've unfortunately had the misconception beaten into our heads that a victory for abortion rights is somehow a victory for social and gender equality, as if they were actually related.
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#15 DWF

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:48 PM

In the end, it's up the person giving out communion, as to whether or not a person should recieve it, people tend to forget that fact. :glare:
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#16 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 04:28 PM

Uncle Sid, on Jul 1 2004, 02:36 PM, said:

^
Strange as it may seem, just about everyone chooses to follow those teachings who follows them and that is just as much a real choice as not following them. 

Besides, quite a few of the social and ethical teachings are actually fairly recent, since certain issues didn't exist in the past.  The birth control decision, for instance, came out in the 1960's. 

I just don't see the fascination with considering everything that has been around a long time to be out of date.
Some people need an axe to grind.

Honestly, if you're not a practicing Catholic, then it's not an issue.  If you are, then you have a choice: your opinion or the authority of the Church you chose to support.  Sometimes the wheat gets seperated from the chaff...or so Jesus said.

Oh, wait...that's out of date too.

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 01 July 2004 - 04:28 PM.

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#17 Godeskian

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 04:32 PM

Quote

Strange as it may seem, just about everyone chooses to follow those teachings who follows them and that is just as much a real choice as not following them. 

Just seems like any deviation is grounds for immediate dismissal. For instance, you can't be a perfect catholic in every way, but disagree with them on Abortion for instance (or so it appears from this case) it presumes that people's opinions will never change due to circumstance or experience.

Quote

I just don't see the fascination with considering everything that has been around a long time to be out of date.

hmm, interestingly put. I don't consider everything that's been around a long time out of date. I consider everything that refuses to recognise that the world has changed in the last century, more so than it has in much of the last two millenia, out of date.

It's not age that makes something out of date, rather inflexibility based on sensibilites that no longer appear to be valid given the society and world that exists around us today.

I hope that makes more sense.

#18 Uncle Sid

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:09 PM

Quote

Just seems like any deviation is grounds for immediate dismissal. For instance, you can't be a perfect catholic in every way, but disagree with them on Abortion for instance (or so it appears from this case) it presumes that people's opinions will never change due to circumstance or experience.

I don't know where you get this impression.  *Any* deviation?  The question of killing a few hundred thousand people a year is something that the Church should very well get involved in, I would think.  I'd consider that rather big, and I'd think you would too, if you actually considered them to be people.  If we did the same to that many newborns a year, I'd think that someone would consider it a problem other than the Catholic Church.  So, I don't see why people find it *so* strange that the Church would get so uptight about what looks to it like genocide.  If there was any reason to start throwing its weight around, I'd think it would be this.

Back to the actual issue, the Church has been very careful in the past in US politics and there is no indication that the Church is going to decide to do anything of the sort.  Just because a guy brings a lawsuit doesn't mean that it's suddenly going to be canon law overnight.  It may be thrown out of court, ignored, over turned or marginalized just like any civil case.  We'll wait and have to see about that.

Quote

I consider everything that refuses to recognise that the world has changed in the last century, more so than it has in much of the last two millenia, out of date.

I doubt that the Church is unaware of the changes you mention, and I sincerely doubt it is ignoring them.  Yes, there has been lots of new stuff coming around in the past few years, but change for change's sake is a horrible idea.  If the world has changed radically in some respects, it does not automatically mean that we toss fundemental values out the door.  It's a legitimate viewpoint that there do exist some bedrock values and beliefs that can be applied in more or less a consistent fashion in a variety of situations.  You may not believe that, of course, but it's hardly a radical concept.
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#19 Godeskian

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:50 PM

Uncle Sid, on Jul 1 2004, 11:07 PM, said:

It's a legitimate viewpoint that there do exist some bedrock values and beliefs that can be applied in more or less a consistent fashion in a variety of situations.  You may not believe that, of course, but it's hardly a radical concept.
Oh i believe that.

I just don't agree with the Catholic church on what those bedrock values and beliefes should be. I find some of their viewpoints abhorrent, as I imagine they would mine.

#20 Shalamar

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 06:25 PM

Quote

The question of killing a few hundred thousand people a year is something that the Church should very well get involved in, I would think.

This is remarkably interesting ( couldn't quite found a word that wouldn't raise howls ) but this is the same church that fired, fueled, funded and blessed the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the genocide of the American peoples of Mexico, Central and South America ( just to name a few )

If we too a long hard look at all the people that the Roman Catholic church has endorsed the deaths of over the centuries they make Hitler and Stalin look like pikers.

Edited by Shalamar, 01 July 2004 - 06:26 PM.

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