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#41 Ogami

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 07:14 PM

Aurelius wrote:

Speaking as an Irish person who, while not a protester, opposed George Bush's visit (on reasons other than the war), I'm hugely amused by this assumption. Mainly because it's so far off the mark it's not within shouting distance.

I'll stand by my statement, such an assumption is a kindness.

Ireland is a small country, with NO military ambitions other than defence. I'd say the vast majority of Irish people would have no wish for a huge military, such as that of the U.S.

I see you fail to recognize that the United States military has not been used for conquest in either of our lifetimes. We haven't added Afghanistan or Iraq to our roster of states or territories. We maintain large standing armies in Germany, South Korea, and Japan to defend innocent civilians. But to those who profess a hatred for Bush or America, as these Irish protesters, none of that counts for anything. Only their hate matters.

Edited to add: I forgot that Ireland declared itself neutral in the face of the absolute evil of Adolf Hitler. I will commend the Irish protesters for consistency in moral choices about whom to remain neutral about, if nothing else. Saddam gets the same benefit of a doubt.

And as for resenting American economic power, again untrue. The Irish economy is stronger than it has been for decades.

It's time you ceded your sovereignty to Great Britain, as Scotland did in 1707. Scotland enjoyed an explosion of prosperity unheard of in the decades that followed, the same awaits Ireland if you wise up.

The majority of the protesters that were present during President Bush's visit are anti-war protesters, who believe that the war in Iraq was wrong.

And here's the rub, Aurelius. Where was a single one of these people protesting Saddam's treatment of the Kurds? Where was a single march undertaken by these same protesters for the villages Saddam gassed during in Iran/Iraq war? Where was a single Irish protester demanding answers for the mass graves uncovered in the past year by BRITISH and American soldiers?

None of these people, these so-called peaceful people, could be bothered to protest the slaughter that Saddam Hussein undertook against his perceived enemies. Their protests are lies, cloaked in the guise of pacifist respectability, when they have chosen sides and they side with the blood-soaked dictators of the world.

As the war against Iraq was initiated under President Bush's orders, then they feel that he is responsible.

So do I! Thank you, Bush! Without his leadership, Saddam would be busy filling more mass graves and leading UN inspectors on wild goose chases.

The recent disgraces committed by American troops (in the prisons of Iraq) have not helped to soften the view of many, many Irish people that the war is wrong.

Yet where is a single one of these protesters when an innocent civilian gets beheaded? Oh, that's Bush's fault. Where are these protesters when Iraqi civilians get blown to hell by carbombs? Oh, that's Bush's fault, too. Nice all-encompassing morality and compassion there on the part of the left. No thought required other than reflexive hatred of western democracies.

And for the record, that mistreatment was NOTHING compared to the treatment of prisoners in 90% of the world. But the left doesn't care about that, as their "oppressed third world brothers" operate on a different set of rules, eh?

Referring to your earlier post Ogami, to refer to legitimate protestors who have a RIGHT to make their view known as "human debris" is completely offensive and I'm frankly disgusted with you.

The Irish protesters I cite in this story ARE human debris, as not a one of them could be found to protest Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Fidel Castro, or that nut who runs Zimbabwei. These men are most likely their heroes, for they dare stand up to the "menace" of the United States.

I believe these Irish protesters are intelligent and articulate people. But they choose their bedfellows and fellow travelers, and they are human debris by their despicable actions and stands.

Is George Bush a war criminal. I don't know, but I don't believe so. However was the war right...no.

War is wrong, but failure to act in the face of aggression is worse still. The world watched and yawned as Saddam butchered his way through history, well one man (make that two counting Blair) didn't yawn at the horrors.

Many will recall the shreds of human debris who called themselves "human shields" shortly before the Iraq war. These people showed up in Iraq to be placed at hospitals and orphanages, to protect them from the evil Bush. Saddam instead had these people distributed to missile sites and miltary bases, leaving these hapless lefties disillusioned. They failed to recognize the true monsters of the world, just as their thoughtless brethren protest and rally against today.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 09 July 2004 - 07:29 PM.


#42 Godeskian

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 05:12 AM

Ogami, on Jul 10 2004, 01:12 AM, said:

Edited to add: I forgot that Ireland declared itself neutral in the face of the absolute evil of Adolf Hitler. I will commend the Irish protesters for consistency in moral choices about whom to remain neutral about, if nothing else.
As did the US untill Pearl Harbour.

#43 Delvo

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 08:10 AM

Given the actual power available for it to wield, Ireland declaring itself neutral in a war like that was like a toddler watching a bar brawl and choosing not to jump in and get himself/herself stomped for no possible purpose or accomplishment.

#44 Ogami

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 12:29 PM

Cyberhippie wrote:

As did the US untill Pearl Harbour.

I see your point, well done. :o

But the war was at Ireland's doorstep, while America's attitude was that it was something happening "over there" and not their concern.

Ireland's resentment towards the rest of the UK apparently exceeded their dislike of Hitler. This is not surprising, as recall the French were deeply suspicious of Churchill's motives. They thought he wanted to conquer and annex France throughout.

Were Germany to have conquered England, I wonder what the attitude in Ireland was. That new management wouldn't be that bad? It's hard to see from a distance, but I could see where the Irish would mistrust the British more than the advancing Germans. They still chose the wrong side in the moral struggle, however. Just as we did (on paper) until Pearl Harbor.

I wouldn't raise it save that the Irish protesters seem to be making the same choice regarding the modern Hitler. (That's Saddam, for those wondering.)

-Ogami

#45 G1223

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 01:01 PM

Well Actually we were giving all aid short of war from 1940 onwards. That is how the Ruben James was sunk and another destroyer heavly damaged by U-Boats. We repelled the neutrality act and started Lend Lense without being in the actual war.

So we were by few means neutral in the conflict.
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#46 Ogami

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 05:13 PM

That sort of lend-lease 'neutrality' from Ireland would have been preferable, but I haven't read or heard anything on it.

-Ogami

#47 G1223

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:04 PM

Ireland did not have the industrial base to do it.

Basically we gave old destroyers to Britian refitted them in our ports and then handed them over. They traded some of the holdings to our care for these ships. The reason being it prevented the Germans if the took Britan from getting bases in Iceland or the Carribean.

I am only talking the history of our getting into WW2 not the current situation.  My opinion is that asking for praise from europe is like asking sky in the desert to bring rain. Sometimes it happens most often it does not.
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#48 Aurelius

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:32 PM

Ogami, on Jul 10 2004, 05:27 PM, said:

Cyberhippie wrote:

As did the US untill Pearl Harbour.

I see your point, well done. :o

But the war was at Ireland's doorstep, while America's attitude was that it was something happening "over there" and not their concern.

Ireland's resentment towards the rest of the UK apparently exceeded their dislike of Hitler. This is not surprising, as recall the French were deeply suspicious of Churchill's motives. They thought he wanted to conquer and annex France throughout.

Were Germany to have conquered England, I wonder what the attitude in Ireland was. That new management wouldn't be that bad? It's hard to see from a distance, but I could see where the Irish would mistrust the British more than the advancing Germans. They still chose the wrong side in the moral struggle, however. Just as we did (on paper) until Pearl Harbor.

I wouldn't raise it save that the Irish protesters seem to be making the same choice regarding the modern Hitler. (That's Saddam, for those wondering.)

-Ogami
Get your facts straight. Ireland officially declared neutrality (an absolute necessity given the economic and defensive condition of the State at the time), but we did help the UK. This help included civil assistance when Belfast was bombed. Not to forget, the thousands of Irish men who enlisted in the British armed forces.

Yes, Ireland did resent Britain at the time. Is it any wonder. I'm sure the U.S. resented Britain for decades after the War of Independence. We had only been independent for less than 20 years when WW2 broke out.

Neutrality in WW2 was regrettable but utterly vital at the time

And as for your belief that Ireland should cede its sovereignty to the U.K.  :suspect:  :wacko:  :wacko:  Are you for real!!!!!!???????

That has to be the most RIDICULOUS notion I've ever heard. What possible reason would we have for rejoining the UK.

Hail All
Aurelius

Edited by Aurelius, 10 July 2004 - 06:34 PM.

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#49 DWF

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:43 PM

Quote

Get your facts straight. Ireland officially declared neutrality (an absolute necessity given the economic and defensive condition of the State at the time), but we did help the UK. This help included civil assistance when Belfast was bombed. Not to forget, the thousands of Irish men who enlisted in the British armed forces.

Yes, Ireland did resent Britain at the time. Is it any wonder. I'm sure the U.S. resented Britain for decades after the War of Independence. We had only been independent for less than 20 years when WW2 broke out.

Neutrality in WW2 was regrettable but utterly vital at the time

And as for your belief that Ireland should cede its sovereignty to the U.K.    Are you for real!!!!!!???????

That has to be the most RIDICULOUS notion I've ever heard. What possible reason would we have for rejoining the UK.

This might be a strange question but, isn't Ireland part of the United Kingdom? I mean internationally Irish athletes compete under the flag of Great Britain. I mean you're still a part of the Commonwealth, right? :unsure:
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#50 MuseZack

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:52 PM

^^

You're thinking of the six counties that comprise Northern Ireland (part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) as opposed to the Republic of Ireland, which is most emphatically not part of the U.K.
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#51 the 'Hawk

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:57 PM

^ And rather proud of it, I might add.

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#52 DWF

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 06:58 PM

MuseZack, on Jul 10 2004, 07:50 PM, said:

^^

You're thinking of the six counties that comprise Northern Ireland (part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) as opposed to the Republic of Ireland, which is most emphatically not part of the U.K.
OK thanks, I guess didn't quite understand where Aurelius was coming from, geographically speaking. :eh:
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#53 Ogami

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 09:57 PM

Aurelius wrote:

And as for your belief that Ireland should cede its sovereignty to the U.K.    Are you for real!!!!!!??????? That has to be the most RIDICULOUS notion I've ever heard. What possible reason would we have for rejoining the UK.

Just a joke. My mother's ancestors emigrated from Ireland to America. My father's are British. So my British side is constantly oppressing my Irish side. That's the way it goes.

-Ogami

#54 Aurelius

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 09:25 AM

^^^Ahh. I see.  :suspect:  :blink:

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