Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Economy headed for banner year!

Election 2004 Economy Bush

  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#41 emsparks

emsparks
  • Forever Missed
  • 2,426 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:02 PM

Drew, on Jul 8 2004, 08:18 PM, said:

Zack, you were right when you said this was going to be a nasty election year. I had no idea just how nasty it would become.
What you donít understand, and Zack does to a degree, is what we have here is the beginning of class warfare in this country. A situation that is only going to get worse: as long as this free trade debacle continues in its present form. Government is not about the corporate bottom line, itís about the people from which it derives its power.,.

Sparky::
Sparky::

Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.

#42 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:06 PM

emsparks, on Jul 8 2004, 08:00 PM, said:

What you donít understand, and Zack does to a degree, is what we have here is the beginning of class warfare in this country.
Nah, I don't think it's class warfare at all. It's just left vs. right, and it's getting uglier every day. However, I have yet to see ugliness on the right that matches the rancid vitriol coming from the left this year.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#43 Nietrick

Nietrick

    Sprinkling the pixie dust of insanity

  • Islander
  • 81 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:22 PM

I'm sick of the idea that everyone on the Right is a rich fatcat. I'm not. I'm lower middle class and I grew up dirt poor. This isn't a class war. It's a dirty political game. Very nasty this year and tiring for all of us.
Life is a jest and all things show it,I thought so once and now I know it!

"Deja vu just ain't what it used to be."

#44 emsparks

emsparks
  • Forever Missed
  • 2,426 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:40 PM

Itís not about right or left. Itís increasingly about have and have notÖ

As Radar would say: ďWait for it.Ē

Sparky::
Sparky::

Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.

#45 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:46 PM

emsparks, on Jul 8 2004, 08:38 PM, said:

Itís not about right or left. Itís increasingly about have and have notÖ
Convince me. Because I'm not. Unless you tell me that the "haves" are all those limousine liberals in Congress, and the "have-nots" are those of us whose money they keep stealing. Then I might buy it.  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#46 emsparks

emsparks
  • Forever Missed
  • 2,426 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:55 PM

Drew, on Jul 8 2004, 09:44 PM, said:

emsparks, on Jul 8 2004, 08:38 PM, said:

Itís not about right or left. Itís increasingly about have and have notÖ
Convince me. Because I'm not. Unless you tell me that the "haves" are all those limousine liberals in Congress, and the "have-nots" are those of us whose money they keep stealing. Then I might buy it.  :cool:
The have-not's  are the ones who want jobs, and don't have them.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 08 July 2004 - 08:55 PM.

Sparky::

Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.

#47 Gefiltefishmon

Gefiltefishmon

    Oolong Caluphids Private Secretary

  • Islander
  • 789 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:00 PM

Quote

It's just left vs. right, and it's getting uglier every day. However, I have yet to see ugliness on the right that matches the rancid vitriol coming from the left this year.

I question your definition of ugliness. Don't you think intentionally leaking to the press the identity of an undercover CIA operative for political gain - well actually just out of vindictive spirit since it's specious as to what Karl Rove gained from doing it - is ugliness?

I would actually call that criminal. But the far right doesn't - apparently - see anything wrong with it......
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#48 Jid

Jid

    Mad Prophet of Funk

  • Islander
  • 12,554 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:03 PM

Drew, on Jul 8 2004, 07:04 PM, said:

However, I have yet to see ugliness on the right that matches the rancid vitriol coming from the left this year.
See, I on the other hand, haven't seen this "rancid vitriol" from the Left, either, though I admit, I'm behind on downloading American television ads for this sort of thing, but, I like to think the parties' websites are fairly indicative.

What's interesting to me is this:

http://www.democrats.org  

The first thing I see on the DNC page is a big splash banner proclaiming the Kerry Edwards ticket, then prominently displayed links to their platforms, and research about the "Bush Record" of governing.  (If you look at them, they're a by the numbers accounting (who knows how good?) of things like job creation, environmental issues, and so on.)

On the other hand: http://www.gop.com

The first thing you see front and center?

Quote

Who is John Edwards?
A disingenuous, unaccomplished liberal and friend to personal injury trial lawyers.
along with a link to a singing John Kerry animation (Kerryoke, heh.) all about how he "flip flops".

I guess I'm not looking hard enough for vitriol or something.
cervisiam tene rem specta

#49 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:15 PM

Jid, on Jul 8 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

I guess I'm not looking hard enough for vitriol or something.
If you're not in the USA, it could be hard to tell (although this forum right here is a not-bad example), especially since the normal trend seems exactly reversed on the "official" websites. But here, it's ubiquitous and inundating.

#50 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:52 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Jul 8 2004, 08:58 PM, said:

Quote

It's just left vs. right, and it's getting uglier every day. However, I have yet to see ugliness on the right that matches the rancid vitriol coming from the left this year.

I question your definition of ugliness. Don't you think intentionally leaking to the press the identity of an undercover CIA operative for political gain - well actually just out of vindictive spirit since it's specious as to what Karl Rove gained from doing it - is ugliness?
No, I think this is ugliness.

I think this is ugliness.

I think this is ugliness,particularly on the back cover of "The Nation" (which is the registrant of "Pleasevote.com" by the way).

I think the dishonest "Fahrenheit 911" is ugliness.

I think the Bush = Hitler meme is ugliness, particularly when the former Vice President engages in it.

This ad is full of ugly lies.

And I think that the Democratic party should distance itself from these moonbats, including the moonbat who used to be Bill Clinton's Vice President.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#51 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:52 PM

Jid, the fact that John Edwards is a trial lawyer is a detriment to his ability to govern if he becomes president. Case in point, trial lawyer John Edwards weighed in on Saddam's forthcoming trial, this is some scary stuff coming from a guy who may represent our country:

http://www.washtimes...l/inbeltway.htm

Quote

Newly chosen vice presidential candidate Sen. John Edwards, a trial lawyer in North Carolina before arriving on Capitol Hill, plans on paying close attention to the Iraqi Special Tribunal trial of Saddam Hussein.

    "The way Saddam Hussein is prosecuted will either cement, or fatally undermine, confidence in the rule of law in Iraq," Mr. Edwards said in a recent foreign-policy address. "It will either prove once and for all to people in the Arab world that Saddam was a monster or reinforce mistrust of our policies and our judgments about Saddam's regime."

    The senator thinks any tribunal that prosecutes Saddam will have to "be seen as legitimate by both the Iraqi people and the international community," and he doesn't think President Bush's move "to turn the entire process of justice over to the Iraqi Governing Council will meet that standard."

    "Prosecuting Saddam is not like restoring electricity or picking up the garbage ó it is one of the most politically sensitive and complex tasks facing a post-Saddam Iraq," Mr. Edwards said. "Giving that task in its entirety to a council that is neither elected nor sovereign, whose members were handpicked by the United States, diminishes the likelihood that trials will be seen as legitimate."

    The senator called instead for Saddam to be tried by the international community, including the United Nations. This past week, Salem Chalabi, head of the Iraqi tribunal, assured critics such as Mr. Edwards that the trial will meet international legal standards.

Yikes! Slobodon Milosevic is in YEAR TWO of his international trial, and Edwards wants to see the same for Saddam? Worse, Edwards actually declares that judges chosen by the United States cannot be trusted! What country is he planning to represent?

Yeah, this guy's a great asset to Kerry's ticket. Democrats sure know how to pick 'em.

-Ogami

#52 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 09:54 PM

Jid, on Jul 8 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

I guess I'm not looking hard enough for vitriol or something.
Here's a good place to start.

And don't forget that lie-filled propaganda film that Michael Moore's been yammering about for the last few months.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#53 Nietrick

Nietrick

    Sprinkling the pixie dust of insanity

  • Islander
  • 81 posts

Posted 08 July 2004 - 10:15 PM

Of course both sides are mud slinging,it's politics. The venom from the Democratic party has been downright scary as of late,and far beyond politics as usual. The GOP doesn't have an entire media system to broadcast their half truths,twisted logic and hate speak,however. Nor do they have all of Hollywood speechifying in interviews.
Life is a jest and all things show it,I thought so once and now I know it!

"Deja vu just ain't what it used to be."

#54 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 07:54 AM

Here's more ugliness.

Quote

Whoopi Goldberg delivered an X-rated rant full of sexual innuendoes against President Bush last night at a Radio City gala that raised $7.5 million for the newly minted Democratic ticket of John Kerry and John Edwards.
Waving a bottle of wine, she fired off a stream of vulgar sexual wordplays on Bush's name in a riff about female genitalia, and boasted that she'd refused to let Team Kerry clear her material.

"I Xeroxed my behind and I folded it up in an envelope and I sent it back with a big kiss mark on because we're Democrats - we're not afraid to laugh," she said.

She addressed fresh-faced vice-presidential candidate Edwards as "Kid," and "young Mr. Edwards" and cracked, "He looks like he is about 18 "

"I'm going to card his ass tomorrow."

Other celebs also competed to bash Bush. Singer John Mellencamp sang a specially written song that called the president "just another cheap thug" and ridiculed him as the "Texas bambino."

Kerry could be seen laughing uproariously during part of Goldberg's tirade - and neither he nor Edwards voiced a single objection to its tone when they spoke to the crowd.

They hailed the fund-raiser as a great event.

Edwards said it was "a great honor" to be there and insisted, "This campaign will be a celebration of real American values."

Kerry thanked all the performers for "an extraordinary evening," hailed the "great producers" - Harvey Weinstein of Miramax and Jann Wenner - and said "every performer tonight ... conveyed to you the heart and soul of our country."

Here's the kicker:

Quote

Last fall, Howard Dean ran into a similar problem when a New York fund-raiser turned into a stream of ugly racist jokes and X-rated Bush-bashing - but Dean instantly came out and said he didn't like the tone of some of the jokes.

Wouldn't it be nice if Kerry and Edwards had half of Dean's class?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#55 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 08:46 AM

^^^

Oh no, bad standup comedy must be denounced at all costs!  

Please, this is just pathetic, even for the New York Post (Kerry picks Gephardt!)...As for your other examples, they're either far out of the mainstream (for goodness sakes, nobody likes Ted Rall) or in the case of the MoveOn censure ad, pretty dead on the money.  This is Andrew Sullivanitis at its worst-- go to some out of the way website like Democratic Underground, cherry pick a couple of the most egregious comments, and pretend that they somehow represent the mainstream of the Democratic Party.  It's both deeply dishonest and essentially acts as if the 1990s, when Rush Limbaugh and the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal spread nutty lesbian Hillary killed Vince Foster conspiracies, didn't exist.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#56 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 09:46 AM

MuseZack, on Jul 9 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

^^^

Oh no, bad standup comedy must be denounced at all costs!  

Please, this is just pathetic, even for the New York Post
The New York Times discussed it, too, and if anything, was harder on Kerry's inability to separate himself from the nastiness than the Post was. The Post just made the nastiness a bit more clear.

Quote

. . . pick a couple of the most egregious comments, and pretend that they somehow represent the mainstream of the Democratic Party.

My point is that the DNC is letting these kooks spread their message and are not stepping in to separate themselves from the wackos. In fact Kerry picks up on the lies of the wackos and repeats them in his stump speeches.

And yeah, I think I said here or elsewhere that during the 90s the Republicans let the extreme right-wing get the message out. This time it's the Democrats letting the left-wing tinfoil-hat-wearing types speak for them.

But if you're saying that "The Nation" is way out of the mainstream, I agree. :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#57 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 10:04 AM

Drew, on Jul 9 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

My point is that the DNC is letting these kooks spread their message and are not stepping in to separate themselves from the wackos.
And these samples aren't even close to uncommon; they're normal and average, and would easily be downright calm and collected at some places.

#58 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 10:33 AM

Drew, on Jul 9 2004, 02:44 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Jul 9 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

^^^

Oh no, bad standup comedy must be denounced at all costs!†

Please, this is just pathetic, even for the New York Post
The New York Times discussed it, too, and if anything, was harder on Kerry's inability to separate himself from the nastiness than the Post was. The Post just made the nastiness a bit more clear.

Quote

. . . pick a couple of the most egregious comments, and pretend that they somehow represent the mainstream of the Democratic Party.

My point is that the DNC is letting these kooks spread their message and are not stepping in to separate themselves from the wackos. In fact Kerry picks up on the lies of the wackos and repeats them in his stump speeches.
The point is that you're misrepresenting the mainstream of discourse in the Democratic Party by cherry picking a couple of extremists and pretending that they represent the whole.

And I see the echo chamber is trying to stir up outrage over Hollywood celebrities (gasp!) saying mean things about the President (gasp!) and try to turn it into another Wellstone memorial pseudo-scandal.  Let's see if the Kerry campaign's dumb enough to take the bait, or sensibly ignores it.

Edited by MuseZack, 09 July 2004 - 10:45 AM.

"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#59 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 10:43 AM

MuseZack, on Jul 9 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

The point is that you're misrepresenting the mainstream of discourse in the Democratic Party by cherry picking a couple of extremists and pretending that they represent the whole.

Unfortunately, it's more than a couple.

So would you count Al Gore among those extremists for his comparisons of Bush to Hitler and Stalin? That's certainly the domain of the MoveOns. If so, then you must either admit that the wacko fringe is now the mainstream, or that the Dems previous candidate for president is one of the moonbats.

Edited by Drew, 09 July 2004 - 01:16 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#60 HubcapDave

HubcapDave

    Bald is Beautiful!

  • Islander
  • 1,333 posts

Posted 09 July 2004 - 12:06 PM

Quote

Itís not about right or left. Itís increasingly about have and have notÖ

As Radar would say: ďWait for it.Ē

Sparky::

Oh come ON now! Please do not insult my intelligence!

You overlook the one fact that in this country, you are able to move from "have" to "have not", and vice versa. For example, I make more than twice the money I made 10 years ago. I'll let you in on a little secret: It wasn't because the government helped me, it's because I helped myself. What gets lost in these types of arguements is the variable of personal responsibility.

If it's a game of class warfare, it's the Dems who have been beating that drum, and they have for some time.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Election, 2004, Economy, Bush

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users